Well If this is how love is defined, I think you need to come up with a new word instead of love. If you say, 'God' , then it still suggests god is no specific thing, just a bunch of descriptors for human constructs/positive personality traits. I have no idea how people can get to the conclusion that God is some kind of person with such traits. And why are they all positive? The Bible is like some kind of self improvement philosophy, no different to the thousands of others.


All I see is people exhorting him to be like they are, but more 'perfect' as defined by their standards.

Not at all, I think its a good thing that people 'love' (as defined above) more. The fiction is rather clever at achieving this, but on the other hand some of the literature- esp in old testement is a bit damaging.
I liked the bolded part. But it can be directly correlated with other Eastern teachings.

This is very similar to other philosophies and theories. Some of which I had already concluded without having read it. This Jesus figure seems only a method of validation.

quotes from 2 posters above:

1)"I feel that the personification of God by theists is a major source of controversy for atheistic thinkers."

2) "Well If this is how love is defined, I think you need to come up with a new word instead of love."

What's more practical in application than the personification of an idea?

If there's no personification then there's no example to copy and there's no results.

Don't humans follow role models?

Without personification the word "love" is a nebulous idea. There's no reality to it and nothing to follow unless someone first decides to give life to the idea.

There's no civil rights movement without a civil rights crusader is there? Civil rights is just an inactive idea.

The problem for many non-theists in my opinion is that it is unclear whether theists, when they personify God, do so thinking that God really has person-like attributes, such as volition. Volition is a major one to consider here. So I will ask you outright: do you believe that God executes decisions?

After you say 'yes,' people will feel compelled to ask further questions such as 'can he make like 5 million decisions at once in the blink of an eye?' etc., because they want to make sure that certain theists realize that they are proprosing a singular God with omniscience and omnipotence that makes all kinds of major decisions regarding the suffering and fate of mankind. An idea that is admittedly absurd in my opinion.

"Without personification the word "love" is a nebulous idea. There's no reality to it and nothing to follow unless someone first decides to give life to the idea."

I don't find it problematic to us personifaction in describing love, but I think that it would be wrong to say that it is only in that form that one can speak of and elucidate the term love.

"God is love" is a concept. There's not reality in concepts. God is not in concepts.
It was not revealed to John conceptually that "God is love".
John realized It, John experienced It, John knew It.
And left the signpost "God is love" for all who would enter into this Way.

The human mind thinks when it studies out "God is love" and defines "love",
it knows what love is, and by extension, it knows God.

The human mind only deals in concepts.
God is not a concept.
To the human mind, God is only a concept and it only knows God as a concept.
Our minds are enmity against the One True God (Rom 8:7)
and our minds cannot know spiritual things (1Cor 2:14)
And because we live centered in our minds as a self, and know no other place to live
we don't know God, nay cannot know God
until
we live centered in the kingdom of God within us.

99.9% of humanity for all time knows only a concept of God
thoughts in the collective mind about God
we pray to the concept
we worship the concept
we attribute the good that happens to that concept
and that concept is just a belief, an idea, a doctrine--it's not Real, not True

However, we can awaken from the dream, and be enlightened by the Light,
and realize-encounter-experience the Father within us,
ever present, continual abiding.

Yes, he makes judgments.

It's probable he could make millions at one time. You can read up on Hezekiah and Sennacherib and how the Angel of the Lord slew 185,000 over night. See 2 Kings 18 and 19.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Kings+18&version=NIV

I've been grappling with this question for awhile now and this little exchange served as an impetus for Truth to be revealed to me, so thank you, you guys.

Religion, of course, teaches us that the answer is yes, God executes decisions. The entire OT is about a god that executes judgments.

But,

John 5:22 The Father judgeth no man, (for)
John 18:36 God's kingdom is not of this world

So, to answer the question, no, the Father doesn't execute decisions. God is nondual, in his nondual kingdom and doesn't directly interfere in the dualities of the dualistic world.

cobster's question is answered directly in John chapter 5 (it even uses the word "execute" in the same manner):

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son...
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment

So, the Father has given all "decision executing" to the Son.
And, if you can hear it, all "decision executing" is given to the sons and daughters of God, if so be you are one with the Father.

AJ a couple of things that have come up from what you have said

There is no dualistic world. There is only the non dual world. to have a dualistic and non dualistic world, would be dualistic. We may conceptualise things as being dualistic, but those concepts dont exist.

If god exists, and is non dual, then he cannot be "outside" the world. Otherwise that would be dualistic. He also cannot exist "within" the world, otherwise that would be dualistic.

If theres a Father and a Son, that would also be dualistic.


Thoughts?

Yeah, I have some. But, my theories about this currently exceed my realization and experiences, so take with a grain of salt.

In concept, yes, dualistic. In truth, the Son is one with the Father (John 10:30); and if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father (John 14:9).

And here you hit the nail on the head. We invest belief into our perceptions of the concepts. And they become "real". Do birth and death exist or are they just concepts? Of course they are real, dummy, says the mind of man. Read the obits and the birth notices, duh.

And yet preexistence is taught in the bible (I knew thee before you were formed in the womb, etc) and even the most religious know that after "death" people go to hell or heaven, and so postexistence is. So, is you exist pre-birth and post-death, are birth and death "real" or just concepts?

I like what Shakespeare says about duality, There is nothing either good nor evil, only (man's) thinking makes it so.

Yes. This is called "the kingdom of God" in the bible.

You dont exist pre birth, or post death. You dont exist at all.

Dualism is a legacy from Platonism. The Platonists thought they had to stifle strong emotions so reason could rule and we have a lot of legacy from Platonism in Western culture.

Packer and Nystrom explain it on their book on prayer. Scripture "conceives of the life of the human individual not as a body and soul duality, nor as a mind and emotions tug of war, but as a unity."

Platonism saw intellect and emotion as two energies working against each other but Christians see regeneration as a unifying of the two energies in Christ into a Godward energy. "Regenerate people feel through their minds and think through their feelings."
Christians become God conscious and God centered in a way that people that don't share this quality don't understand.

cf. 2 Cor. 5:17, Gal. 6:15, new heart in Ezekiel 36:26

yes they all are. it is all good neeeel.
each continues on their path towards their own truth.