You seem unfamiliar with the concept of "analogy".

I'm not judging your history credentials, I'm judging your statements. Which you are making. On the interwebz.

Ok, I guess I got the answer I was looking for.

You weren't looking for an answer.

What is the "battleground" that houses the fight for and against religious extremism in the states? It is the schools. Creationists in the US have done their best trying to infect school curriculums for the better part of 50 years.

The reason should be obvious. If they get the schools, they'll grow like wildfire.

ok.

What do you think would have resulted from the creationist movement in the US, if the only thing employed against it was

?

I know that you're not arguing this but that ties neatly into a long held opinion of mine, that childhood indoctrination is a very significant factor in the propagation of religions. If we ignore creationists, because if they weren't causing trouble because of religion they'd just be causing it because of something else, we risk allowing that ideology to propagate uncontested.

Sure, but for most of the lifetime of Christianity, medicine, such as it was, couldn't be shown to any more effective than prayer. This is clearly not the case any more and the religious are now taking advantage of modern medical treatment rather than relying on prayer.

This seems like a (specific) lack of faith, as we've already agreed.

As I said to LC and WN, Christians, and believers of other religions use the concept of faith to explain their belief, faith is a crucial part of religious belief, but when the choice is faith or a type of medical treatment, most take the treatment rather than relying on god to sort out the problem for them. If you really truly believe, then aren't the options: 1) God will heal me 2) God won't intervene but whatever happens is part of his plan for me.

In which case aren't you second guessing god to go and get your problem treated? This is not about biblical interpretation, I'm trying to figure out where faith ends and medical treatment begins.

I find it absurd that you can consider a factual statement to be outrageous.

Correct. I should've said "Whenever one gets called out on a statement about some supposedly-held fringe position, rather than actually discuss ... supposedly-held fringe position"

By my count, this is the third time you've asserted that there was a time when Christians relied solely on prayer but that they no longer do. You're going to have to offer support for that, some kind of historical evidence.

They probably don't believe holy water freshens your breath, either. They lack that specific faith. Again, so what?

What do you mean 'second-guessing'? Again, is it second-guessing god to eat when you're hungry? Any objection seated in "we've always had food" will not be treated seriously without justification, btw.

'Part of god's plan' is just never a positive prescribing force. Wouldn't it be second-guessing god to positively assert that seeking medical treatment wasn't part of its plan?

Childhood indoctrination is a very significant factor in the propagation of almost every part of human life and belief. You do it with your children, but you seem ok with that. You seem to be imagining secretive dark cabals of believers meeting and plotting how they can grab power and influence. This may well be true, but in general, people do what they do because they believe it is what they have to do , or what is best. Even creationists.

when you use emotive "its for the good of the children" type language to attack religion, I dont think it helps you.

Everything that you accuse religion of ( false beliefs, indoctrination of children) can also be levelled at you , me, and every other human. So, it seems to me that its not a religion problem, but a human condition problem.

Addressing religion on its own is just papering over the cracks.

The problem with most of Abrahamic religion is that it is exclusive. It's not just an idea or a belief. It is generally the belief in one truth and disbelieving that truth is generally held to be sinful. Whatever perspectives are allowed are perspectives that can be used to still hold that truth alive.

We might indoctrinate children with the idea of gravity, but we don't generally teach them that disbelieving gravity will unable you to go to heaven or that belief in gravity makes you a good person.

Never underestimate the "indoctrinating" (I'll use that word since it was already being discussed) effects of punishment and reward.

Its not just an idea or belief? Sure it is, just one that holds that it is the right idea or belief. Maybe more insidious and damaging that believing in the tooth fairy, but still a symptom rather than a cause.

I agree with you generally, but as you say, punishment and reward are used in a lot more places than religion to do the indoctrinating.

I'm not sure I can even fathom a way in which whether or not you believe in or don't believe in creationism will somehow affect your day (or your life, for that matter.)

It's literally a belief that has no practical utility for the average person at all.
It is just one of many secular-atheist bogeymans.

(And anyway, that Comfort guy has a video coming out that will destroy evolutionism for good. The gig is up!!)

This whole idea that "I have to fight christianity because Christians don't believe in evolution" is not only based on a erroneous perception, but is also indicative of not appreciating why people flock to Christ. You can make a correlation between people growing up in a Christian culture and becoming Christian. Fine. I can show you how from one man the religion spread across the whole globe, across nations, across cultures, through persecution, through suppression, etc.

There are literally so many false-associations in the mind of the average anti-christ that it is hard to know where to start.

The issue is and always has been "a form of godliness" that Paul talked about...


For example, how often do I see Christians here calling others in this forum "contemptible" or "racist" or "bigoted" or "despicable"?

Yet this is exactly the language of the evangelical atheist. He is a moralist at heart-- fire-and-brimstone, holding high his placard, pointing his 'holy' finger at others in accusation. They know that godliness is important. They attach themselves to a form of it with a self-righteous conviction that most Christians can't even approach. Because somehow, this righteousness comes from within them, from themselves alone. 'I do not believe I am better than you, I AM better than you.' I. I. I. I. I. You are. You are. You are. You are.

That would be the "denying the power (source) thereof" part. That passage is stunningly prophetic and relevant.

Yet a Christian has to believe that his righteousness comes from God's grace through Christ. The difference between you and me is that I can recognize that I am no good, and no better than anyone else. I'm not. If you heap up my sins it is going to make for one great stinking mountain of dung that is going to overshadow anything good that I have done.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a world where you are not judged so harshly by others. And yes, there are those in the Christian aisle who do so, but there are checks and balances within Christian doctrine itself that serves to hamper proliferation of this mentality-- such as "do not judge others."

Right away, I am thinking of every evangelical atheist's favorite group of fundies-- those westboro baptist people. I saw a video where a gay man went to live with them for a few days, and came out saying nothing but nice things about the way he was treated!

And on that note, I'll just end this post.

You are one of the best (worst) namecallers on this forum. Get off your high horse.

It is indeed more than a belief. It is a religion. In this it is implied that it is set of beliefs, norms, rituals, traditions and cultural tendencies. In other words, most of what you need for the system to propagate itself.

Christianity isn't just an idea that pops into people's head. If we assume Christianity did not exist, and someone suddenly ran around with let's say... an average Catholic faith, we'd likely medicate them heavily (which we can say for many common beliefs, but it is important to understand that this isn't just an idea that several people happen to hold at the same time).

Indeed it is.

Because their is a creationist Lobby (Though its not as strong as it was a few years ago) that is trying to get this taught in schools and we dont want our children taught nonsense in schools. Is that really that hard to fathom?
Well, how often do you hear atheists do it? It's mainly just me saying it to you.

And as much as you like doing your humble schtick about how "you are no better than anyone else" You certainly like condemning people for doing things you find unsavory.

Not true. If we all vanished and left a generation of kids to grow up with nothing being urged on them, they would rediscover many self evident 'truths' about life. I seriously doubt an exact replica of Christianity would occur.

On the subject of religion (and a few other systems that I would consider 'beliefs' a opposed to 'how to cross a road safely' type skills), I've tried to educate my kids and encourage them to ask questions rather than tell them what to believe because it's what I happen to believe is true. I doubt you could find anything that I've indoctrinated into my kids but by all means try, if you can then it's something that I need to address.

What? This is nothing to do with what I said. I never claimed that christianity is a self evident truth.



So you say. If its true then you are probably one of the few people on the planet who dont .
Do you never punish your children? Do you never reward your children?
If so, what behaviours do you punish or reward, and what are the reasons.

I know you didn't. I was disagreeing with this:
I don't agree. Maybe a large part of 'belief' but not of life.


It's a little hard to describe an entire parenting philosophy in a few lines or with a few examples, can you be more specific? Generally, I try to help them acquire skills that will benefit them in life. What I never do is tell them what to believe on subjects like political or religious beliefs, what sport they should be fans of, that sort of thing but I'm not sure how to classify what falls into that category and what doesn't.

I encourage them to question everything and not to assume that things are the way that they are because they could be no other way.

I asked you these questions before, but you never seemed to answer them

Do you ever ask them to( make them?) do their homework?

If so, what would happen if they said no, dont want to? Im pretty sure you wouldnt go "ok, just go and do whatever you want to do"

Neeel pretty much covered it below, but statements like this are why so many people claim (and I agree in some cases) that anti-theists hold to their beliefs dogmatically.

Unless you are using a non-standard definition of "indoctrination," the above is just utterly false.

You can, of course, argue that the thing (in this case religion) that they are being indoctrinated to believe is harmful, but to say that religion is bad because "indoctrination" makes it nothing more than an anti-theist buzz word.

Which questions? Do I punish and reward my kids? Yes of course I do but those are just reinforcement methods, they have no bearing on what I'm reinforcing.

I try to enure that they do their homework for two reasons:

1) Not doing so causes trouble with the school and ultimately with the education authorities.

2) Education broadens the mind and gives them a better chance of making informed decisions, especially on subjects like religion.

What's ironic, if I want to be charitable and call it irony, is that while I've been trying to assist the school in it's mission to educate my children, I've had to fight them to prevent them indoctrinating my children into the Christin belief system

Children aren't born with a complete religious belief system, and I agree with Dawkins that there's no such thing as a 'Christian' or 'Muslim' child, only children with Christian and Muslim parents.

For good reasons it's considered unacceptable to indoctrinate children with political beliefs but religions get a pass, even to the point of having toddlers into their places of worship for indoctrination that they call 'sunday school', perhaps because of the air of legitimacy that is affords. Why are religions seemingly exempt from the normal rules on how children should be introduced to belief systems?


Good job I'm not saying that then, I think you've misunderstood and accidentally created a strawman.

indoctrination is indoctrination, whether you are indoctrinating them with a religion, or a love of star wars movies. So you are right, your method of indoctrination has no bearing on what you are indoctrinating.

The things you are re-inforcing are tightly tied up with your beliefs about the world and how it should be. Otherwise, why would you be re-inforcing them?

How can you not see that "Do this, otherwise you will be punished" is indoctrination?

Your reasons for indoctrination are irrelevant if, as you seem to be saying, indoctrination is always bad.

Im sure your kids dont ( or didnt at some point) give a crap about your reasons 1 and 2 above, but you are successfully indoctrinating them into these beliefs and ideas about education and authority.

You still didnt answer my questions. If they say "no, I dont want to do my homework", do you just go "ok then, go and do whatever you want"