ALTER2EGO to EVERYONE:

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. Precision leaves no room for error or for surprise results. Rather, precision requires deliberation.

Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of those 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms—from which the Earth's elements are made—are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements (e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton) reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography)


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident, considering that, by definition, an accident causes "unfortunate" results and a spontaneous event shows lack of planning?

3. As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words "LAW"?


________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Two Questions for Evolutionists:

1. Was the Mt. Rushmore National Monument a result of an intelligent mind or minds conceiving of the idea of the monument, followed by meticulous engineering to make the idea a reality in the physical world?

a) Yes

b) No


2. Were the real-life human beings depicted on Mt. Rushmore a result of an intelligent mind or minds conceiving of the idea of those people, followed by meticulous engineering to make the idea a reality in the physical world?

a) Yes

b) No

1. Yes
2. No

3/1/2012

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...tion-1174663/?

Hi, Aaron!

You've never heard of "bumping" a thread? Except in this case it's bumping a post from a nine-year-old thread into its own thread.

Notice that the arguments put forth by religious people in threads like these do not eliminate deism. In fact they point toward deism rather than theism (God continuing to intervene or answer prayers.) And most atheists are generally OK with deism while religious people are not.

That's one reason I say religious people should be hanging their hat on the consciousness question rather than talking about the periodic table.

lolwtf.

this, obviously.

my dude is mad af he didn’t get to say “GOTCHA!”

Not to mention, the reason for the properties of the elements is well understood scientifically, with no “mystery” that requires divine explanations. It’s basically just the wave properties of electrons that account for the properties of the elements. Electrons bound within atoms form standing waves. The configuration of these waves accounts for the elementals properties. In analogous fashion, blowing into a flute causes standing sound waves in the flute. The musical notes produced by the flute are a result of the configuration of these standing waves. Do we really need to invoke a deity to explain why a flute works? Elements work in analogous fashion, just with an “electron wave” rather than a sound wave.

An atheist who is "OK with deism" is not an atheist, by definition.

Depends on what is meant by "OK." I'm OK with astrology. I think it's stupid and nonsensical, but I don't care if anyone believes it...doesn't hurt me because, so far at least, no one is trying to introduce legislation based on astrology.

In much the same way, I'd be OK with deism because it doesn't come with all the baggage that theism does (and the attempts to change laws to agree with that baggage). But I certainly don't subscribe to deism. Do I now have to refer to myself as an adeist as well as an atheist?

I'm guessing that most atheists would be less concerned if they found out that deism is true than most theists would.

I’m ok with deism in the sense that deism is compatible with all the physical evidence in the universe (by definition). I don’t believe it’s true because lack of a deity is also consistent with all observations. If deism were somehow proven, and I don’t see how it could be done since deism implies a deity that has no observable effect, I could very easily become a deist. I’d only need change the truth value I apply to the proposition “No deities exist” from true to false. No other changes to my beliefs would be necessary

The reigning theory on the existence of the moon is that it was formed when a protoplanet collided with earth.

So, if we can infer god's divine precision from the popular abstraction of chemical properties, then we can safely conclude from the existence of the moon that he still struggles a lot with parallel parking.

But then, who doesn't? Struggling with parallel parking is a communicable divine attribute.

True. You creationists believe I’m made in God’s image, so it’s not my fault that I can’t get my car into that stinking space

Here is a passage from the book The Bible has the Answer, by Henry M. Morris and Martin E. Clark:

The very essence of the scientific method, in common with all human experience, involves the basic principle of "cause and effect." That is, no effect can be greater than its cause. "From nothing, nothing comes!" There must therefore be a First Cause of all things which has at the very least all the characteristics which are seen in the universe which has been produced by it.

Thus, the First Cause must have intelligence, because there are intelligent beings in the universe, and the universe itself is intelligible, capable of being studied and described intelligently: It is an "effect" which must have an adequate "cause," and such a cause must therefore have intelligence in such a high degree as to practically be called "omniscient" (all-knowing). (p. 14)

The first 60 elements aren't all that "precise". What we call carbon is actually 15 different known configurations of nuclei that were not predicted and have only been discovered by experiment. It just so happens that at the chemical scale the nucleus of an atom can be thought of as a fundamental particle and only it's charge really matters so you can ignore isotopes and create the periodic table as an approximation of what is really going on.

stremba70:

Simply stating that science understands THE REASON WHY is hardly an explanation for HOW the first 60 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table came into existence. Science understands why some people are dead and why some are alive but cannot explain how people came into existence.

QUESTION #1 TO stremba70: How is it that ALL 60 elements on the Periodic Table are precise--indicating deliberation?

QUESTION #2 TO stremba70: Did the 60 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table accidentally or spontaneously reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms?

QUESTION #3 TO stremba70: Are you saying there was need for the deliberate intervention of an intelligent being in order for the first 60 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table to come into existence?


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

The following is from the Ruckman Reference Bible, Appendix 20, p.1705:


The First Cause of limitless space must be limitless.
The First Cause of endless time must be eternal in duration.
The First Cause of perpetual motion must be endless in power.
The First Cause of unbounded variety must be omnipresent.
The First Cause of infinite complexity must be omniscient.
The First Cause of consciousness must be personal.
The First Cause of feeling must be emotional.
The First Cause of will must be volitional.
The First Cause of ethics must be moral.
The First Cause of religion must be spiritual.
The First Cause of love must be loving.
The First Cause of life must be living.

Science's god is amoral, unfeeling, neuter, impersonal, and unable to hold any creature accountable. He is sterile and senile.

The arguments put forth by religious people don't eliminate or prove anything.

Humans are studying the world around them from our own point of view and we are categorizing things the way we are (if I may) designed to.

Figuring out there's order in the world isn't really that impressive.

The first cause of God must be God.

So......

What I meant was that even if you accept the things they say when they are arguing against atheists in threads like this, you haven't eliminated deism.

I agree.

But it's actually much worse than that. You haven't eliminated any of their random infallible beliefs about the God they are arguing exists.

So if we agree that this shows there must be a God (it's somewhat persuasive) we still have no reason to join the organization they're making a pitch for.

I’m not going to try to teach you quantum mechanics on here. It’s way too complex. Whatever you think you mean by “the first 60 elements are precise” can be adequately explained by quantum mechanics. If you want to question quantum mechanics, well, so just hope the irony isn’t lost on you, considering the method you’re using to question it.

I also wonder why you focus on only the first 60 elements when there are 96 naturally occurring elements and an increasing number of laboratory-synthesized ones. I’m a chemist, so you can’t slip this particular line of BS past me, though. The “precision” that you’re so impressed with breaks down and things get far more messy and the periodic relationships fail to hold for heavier elements.

It’s a result of the lanthanides contraction and relativistic effects foe high Z elements. Science provides explanations for why this occurs. What I don’t get is why an omnipotent deity would choose to break the periodic relationships for heavier elements? Did He just get bored after the first 0 or so and decided to shake it up a bit? Yeah, I know this will generate about as much response from the theists on here as my “why don’t whales and dolphins have gills?” question did on the other thread.