Original sin and death - Religion, God, and Theology

Didn't want to derail the 'Old Testament God...' thread so I thought I'd start a new one instead regarding a point made there.

It was mentioned that it was Adam's sin that brought death to the world. So that being the case, if Adam hadn't sinned and humans remained immortal what exactly was god's plan for the problems of over population?

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05-16-2014 , 01:30 PM

Louis Cyphre

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The universe is quite big for one and he can always move people to some other dimension (e.g. heaven) as he sees fit.

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05-16-2014 , 01:39 PM

Husker

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I done a quick google search and they seem to come up with a figure of around 100 billion for the number of people who have ever lived. None of the sites I (briefly) looked at really have much to back that up though. But if that were the case, and with any possible large-scale colonisation of other planets looking to be far far off in the futre, then the universe doesn't seem to be a reasonable explanation.

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05-16-2014 , 01:46 PM

batair

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And for some its wasn't just no death for humans but also the other animals.

With that and his stance on birth control. Otoh.

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05-16-2014 , 01:46 PM

Louis Cyphre

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If there was no natural death people would not have had as many children. Who knows how far we would have come if the smartest people we ever had could have gone on with their research for ever.

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05-16-2014 , 01:50 PM

Naked_Rectitude

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Great question, never heard it before. A related question, is how long did they go without sinning before they ate of the tree? I don't think they held out that long, so it seems to me that God wasn't too worried about overpopulation.

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05-16-2014 , 02:13 PM

Sloppy Joe

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Originally Posted by Husker

Perhaps God was planning to create a huge city similar to that described in Revelation 21.

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05-16-2014 , 02:16 PM

Husker

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Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

If there was no natural death people would not have had as many children.

Even if we exclude those who never survived infancy we'd still be at a pretty high number. You just need to look at the huge population explosion we've had in the last century.

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05-16-2014 , 02:22 PM

Louis Cyphre

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This leaves us with option two: promote those who are deserving to heaven.

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05-16-2014 , 02:24 PM

#10

Husker

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Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

This leaves us with option two: promote those who are deserving to heaven.

Based on, their belief? their deeds?

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05-16-2014 , 02:29 PM

#11

Louis Cyphre

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Yes, something like that.

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05-16-2014 , 02:57 PM

#12

Husker

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The beliefs one could cause problems.

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05-16-2014 , 02:59 PM

#13

Husker

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Originally Posted by Naked_Rectitude

I've never read the bible so I'm gonna have to leave that one for others

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05-16-2014 , 03:42 PM

#14

Naked_Rectitude

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Originally Posted by Husker

I've never read the bible so I'm gonna have to leave that one for others

It doesn't outright say, but you can do some math. Some who have tried to reconcile the old earth with the creation story have tried to imply that Adam could have lived millions of years before he sinned, but unless God started counting Adam's age after he sinned, it doesn't work out, since he lived 900 and some odd years.

You never read the bible? You should, there are some great stories in there, even if you take it as fiction, the OT has some solid literature.

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05-16-2014 , 03:48 PM

#15

Louis Cyphre

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Originally Posted by Husker

The beliefs one could cause problems.

Care to elaborate?

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05-16-2014 , 03:57 PM

#16

Husker

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Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

Care to elaborate?

Well if believers are constantly being taken to heaven (or believers in this particular god) then the largest portion of the population will end up being non believers. If we then continue on the basis that children are more likely to follow their parents belief, or lack of belief, system then the population will still pretty much end up out of control.

* Disclaimer, given the discussion has been pretty light I haven't bothered researching the parents/ children beliefs correlation before posting the above

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05-16-2014 , 03:59 PM

#17

Husker

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Originally Posted by Naked_Rectitude

You never read the bible? You should, there are some great stories in there, even if you take it as fiction, the OT has some solid literature.

I've gotta admit, it's not on my reading list. I did get half way through the gospel of budhha a few years ago but that's about it as far as religious texts are concerned.

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05-16-2014 , 04:46 PM

#18

Doggg

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From my reading of the text, Adam and Eve didn't copulate until after the fall. Make of that what you will.

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05-16-2014 , 07:02 PM

#19

BrianTheMick2

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Originally Posted by Doggg

From my reading of the text, Adam and Eve didn't copulate until after the fall. Make of that what you will.

Genesis 1:28 and Genesis 2:24.

You have never bothered to actually read it, right?

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05-16-2014 , 07:42 PM

#20

Sloppy Joe

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As I recall, Augustine of Hippo in his writings had speculated that if there had been no fall, men and women would walk with God on earth, they would live very long lives, and then be taken into heaven without dying, similar to Enoch and Elijah taken into heaven without dying. Only satan and demons would be in hell.

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05-16-2014 , 09:25 PM

#21

Doggg

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2

Genesis 1:28 and Genesis 2:24.

You have never bothered to actually read it, right?

No. It is you who never bothered to read it. I stand by my statement.

4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

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05-16-2014 , 09:55 PM

#22

Louis Cyphre

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Originally Posted by Husker

I don't think it makes sense to speculate about the faith retention rates in this hypothetical world. We can easily come up with ways to solve this supposed problem.

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05-16-2014 , 10:07 PM

#23

BrianTheMick2

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Originally Posted by Doggg

No. It is you who never bothered to read it. I stand by my statement.

4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Genesis 1:28 Be fruitful and multiply ... on the 6th day.

The whole apple thing comes well after the 6th day. Unless you mean to imply that what god said was "be fruitful and multiply, but wait until after you have the apple I told you not to eat" you are simply wrong or are saying that Adam and Eve disobeyed prior to the sinful snack.

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05-16-2014 , 10:41 PM

#24

Doggg

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It is very possible, and I have considered it, that Adam and Eve were disobedient in other ways beside the whole fruit of the tree business. The way the text reads seems to suggest that adam and eve did not "know" each other until after the fall, as I said. One can even tie that in to their falling victim to the wiles of the serpent, in an "idle hands are the devil's handiwork" kind of way. They clearly weren't fruitful, or multiplying. They plucked fruit from the tree of knowledge, and did not produce their own fruit.

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05-16-2014 , 11:28 PM

#25

BrianTheMick2

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Originally Posted by Doggg

The tree of knowledge has nothing to do with ****ing.

It isn't a really complicated story.

Things get a bit complicated later, but the ****ing clearly was the reason why Eve was made out of a bit of Adam. If that wasn't the reason, it would have been Adam and Steve.

Last edited by BrianTheMick2; 05-16-2014 at 11:29 PM. Reason: also, your mom and dad ****ed

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