Sorry you're logic is not persuasive.

Martyrdom is eloquent. It's persuasive. It underscores loyalty based on personal knowledge.

so a martyr from any other religion is demonstrating the personal knowledge they claim to have?

You insist on focusing on just this one case and then make category wide generalizations

I'm not generalizing about all martyrs. I'm only commenting on one case.

There's absolutely no necessity for this cross comparison of martyrs other than you prefer it.

My belief isn't based on the activity of the martyrs. But the fact there are martyrs lends reality to Christ founded beliefs in contrast to Horus.

sure sounds like you are generalizing, despite your protestations.


Does that there are martyrs claiming things about other religions (probably even Horus, although I don't know if we have the historical record for that) ALSO "lend reality" to these beliefs the way you say it does about christianity?

More to the point, do you think the extent to which humans tend to commit martyrdom to religious beliefs you personally find to be patently untrue should modulate in any way our confidence about how good the evidence of martyrdom is towards the truth of what people say?

Whether the Apostles believed they were dying for a lie or not is immaterial to whether or not it was actually a lie.

The point of the comparison isn't to analyze Jones and Jesus. It's to illustrate that people will die for a wide variety of beliefs. That they chose to do so does not give us any insight into the actual veracity of their beliefs.

Additionally, neither you or I knows whether or not Jones and his followers aren't currently living in paradise in an afterlife. He could have been right all along.

Jones encouraged suicide, Jesus didn't. How does that in any way allow us to determine who was the truth?

No more so than people martyred for a myriad of other beliefs.

All these questions. Why raise so many objections?

Most people get that the Apostles were a great success. They mirrored Christ to the nth degree and that can't be taken from them by comparing them with outside examples.

Splendour

You are stating that -

The apostles witnessed jesus, and were willing to die for their beliefs, therefore their beliefs were true.

Is this an accurate description of the point you are trying to make?

Because to answer the questions honestly is to see that your comments about martyrdom eloquently displaying personal knowledge and the like is simply false and all the example around the world demonstrate how patently untrue it is to argue that martyrdom increases the veracity of the underlying belief.

Whether the apostles were successful at mirroring Christ is entirely irrelevant - ironic since you are getting at us for irrelevant tangents.

I'm not describing anything I'm not taking a position itt.

I'm done with the thread.

back track or run away much?

This is why, in general, trying to engage splendour in conversation is pretty meaningless, I think.

Why is it not a bannable offense to make 17 posts in a 62-post thread without actually taking a position even though the thread is basically you arguing with other people? If you never intend to make any points, then you should just leave.

Why don't you take them on? You claim to be a theist yet haven't debated for God in a single debate I can recall.

I am curious, is continuing to banter back and forth but retreating from your indefensible position count as violating your beliefs?

First of all, that isn't a response to my post at all.

Secondly, I'm not here for some theist-atheist war. I argue for what's correct in my view.

Third, I have certainly supported God in posts before. Most threads on this site seem to address aspects of Christianity specifically, which may explain why you don't recall this. Here, I'll even make this easy for you: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...otent-1097903/ . A thread in which I attack arguments that God can not be omnipotent, from just over a week ago.

Want to try again?

My positions are usually impregnable so I elicit a lot of frustrated hostility on here. But I don't agree to debate any more because I'm working on overcoming doublemindedness.

The Danger of Being Double-Minded
http://www.ucg.org/christian-living/...double-minded/

Honestly, you are the best level I think I've ever seen.

+1

Okay, I don't think there is any more need for personal discussions of people's posting styles in this thread. If you have substantive content to add that relates to the thread topic or to the martyrdom tangent, feel free to continue posting, but I'll delete any further personal comments in this thread.

Interesting.

Not interesting at all.

http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017...he-horus-myth/

https://strangenotions.com/horus-manure/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q9OciPnMFg

In the mystery centers of the ancient world one can glean that the lives of initiates follow, in some measure, a standard progression into the spiritual world. this was the work of these mystery centers , to facilitate the "higher man" who upon entry into the world of the spirit and brought forth comprehensions to which total cultures would follow in thought and deed. The mystery centers were the religious,cultural, and scientific centers of the ancient peoples.

It would be wrong to cast the words Horus, Osiris, or Isis as personages in an historical sense such as Napoleon or George Washington. They were more like cloaks to which the initiand traveled through spiritually until in the case of the Egyptians he became an "Osiris" or one who gained experience in the higher regions of humanity, the spiritual world. Horus can be seen as the initiate who carries the "sun power" within and Isis as the "soul love" manifest in order to facilitate the movement of Horus into an "Osiris" .



In the mystery centers of antiquity the initiand was placed into a "trance state" by the hierophants and experienced the higher regions of the spirit in "image form". The story of Aeschylus being tried in mystery court for betraying the mysteries is telling. The works within the mysteries were not to be betrayed at risk of death or worse for to disseminate the same would bring perversion to the mystery process. Aesychlus proved that he did not betray the mysteries for he had never been initiated; all that he created was without the aid of those centers.

If one wonders as to why Jesus of Nazareth , the carrier of the Christ Being" or "Christ Light" was accused and sentenced to death consider the Hebrew Mysteries. The Pharisees were a mystery center and they saw this man as betraying the mysteries for his entire life from the Baptism of John until the Crucifixion displayed a initiate progression for the whole world to see. This was so.

Whereas the initiate progression was kept in the secret mystery centers the life of Christ Jesus was the displaying of this very process on the world stage. the gospels are not historical accounts of Christ Jesus but "initiate walks" from different mystery centers looked at through the eyes of their particular mystery initiations.

What was in the mystery center was now gone through on the world stage . The "trance state" no longer applied as we now have the "Death" and "Resurrection" of Christ Jesus for all to see. What was for a select few in the mystery centers was now the ownership of all mankind , the progression of man into the world of the spirit as a spiritual being, the Community of Christ, all in time.

Chapter 5 of "Christianity as a Mystical Fact" by Rudolph Steiner which has an excellent rendering of the Egyptian Mysteries and speaks to the initiate comparison of Buddha and Christ Jesus.

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA008/...GA008_c06.html

Has anybody heard of the theory that Caesarion, Cleopatra's son, was actually Jesus? She sent him to India to escape Octavian, lol.

You should give us the details ....