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Old 11-30-2017, 01:28 PM   #76
mcpon14
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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Originally Posted by carlo View Post
You should give us the details ....
Caesarion was taught the mystery schools of Egypt by Cleopatra and sent to India where he learned eastern Mysticism and the legend of Jesus was based off of his spiritual journey. In India, Caesarion was known as Issa, lol.
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:08 PM   #77
Aaron W.
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

Here's a *totally* reputable website that explains this theory:

http://coolinterestingstuff.com/cons...aesarion-jesus
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:27 PM   #78
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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Here's a *totally* reputable website that explains this theory:

http://coolinterestingstuff.com/cons...aesarion-jesus
Well, all of the theories such as that are fringe theories since the most accepted one, of course, is that of him being a Judaic religious figure, lol.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:04 AM   #79
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

Just to calm things down a bit, as per Encyclopedia Brittanica, the abridged story of Caesarion who died at the hands of Caesar (Octavian), as per the reference, at 30 BCE .

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Caesarion
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:10 AM   #80
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

From a religious and non-religious perspective Splendour is just plain wrong. He makes a questionable point about martyrdom being proof of religious sovereignty, but then disregards other cases of martyrdom for other religions. What about during the holy wars? Convert to Christianity or die? Some people did, but guess what... some people didn't. Does that make them a martyr? Yes. Does that prove their religion to be true? No.

Now Splendour makes a post about how using your brain is bad. That is cult mentality right there; Never questioning your beliefs. Feeling shame for being curious. Being trapped in the box you've built for yourself.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:42 AM   #81
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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From a religious and non-religious perspective Splendour is just plain wrong. He makes a questionable point about martyrdom being proof of religious sovereignty, but then disregards other cases of martyrdom for other religions. What about during the holy wars? Convert to Christianity or die? Some people did, but guess what... some people didn't. Does that make them a martyr? Yes. Does that prove their religion to be true? No.

Now Splendour makes a post about how using your brain is bad. That is cult mentality right there; Never questioning your beliefs. Feeling shame for being curious. Being trapped in the box you've built for yourself.
So-called "Christians" who provoked holy wars, crusades, and forced conversions were being disobedient to the teachings of the Jesus that they claimed to follow.

On the other hand, some Muslims interpret their Koran to imply that the killing of non-Muslims in a holy war will assure them a place in heaven.

My point is that Christians who murder unbelievers are being disobedient to their faith, while Muslims who murder unbelievers of their faith are actually being obedient to their faith (at least based on some interpretations).

While I'm not taking taking the position that martyrdom "proves" that any religion is true, I believe it is worth noting that true Christian martyrs died without the expectation of any special reward in heaven (because these martyrs were already convinced of their eternal destination), while Muslim martyrs (who were unsure of their "salvation") would die in a holy war to in their minds guarantee eternal rewards.

Last edited by lagtight; 12-05-2017 at 04:43 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:57 AM   #82
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So-called "Christians" who provoked holy wars, crusades, and forced conversions were being disobedient to the teachings of the Jesus that they claimed to follow.

On the other hand, some Muslims interpret their Koran to imply that the killing of non-Muslims in a holy war will assure them a place in heaven.

My point is that Christians who murder unbelievers are being disobedient to their faith, while Muslims who murder unbelievers of their faith are actually being obedient to their faith (at least based on some interpretations).

While I'm not taking taking the position that martyrdom "proves" that any religion is true, I believe it is worth noting that true Christian martyrs died without the expectation of any special reward in heaven (because these martyrs were already convinced of their eternal destination), while Muslim martyrs (who were unsure of their "salvation") would die in a holy war to in their minds guarantee eternal rewards.
I was referring to the people not converting being martyrs, not the people with the sword. I only used "convert to Christianity or die" as an example to show that Muslims and Jews would choose death over committing to a faith they don't believe in as well as Christians.

I don't believe that Christians are as confident about their salvation as they'd like others to believe. In fact, I'd argue that the more religious someone is the more fearful they are of death and possibly going to hell.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:25 PM   #83
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

I think that Christianity becoming so popular partly shows how miserable the lives of peasants were in the past. They were willing to full-heartedly believe in something just to make their lives more bearable which is that, in the end, Salvation is waiting for them. A non-religious example is the Taiping Rebellion where the peasants were recruited in droves because of the promise of a planned paradisal place that they might reside in and they because zealous fighters for this dream.
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:07 PM   #84
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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I think that Christianity becoming so popular partly shows how miserable the lives of peasants were in the past.
There are good reasons why this is a terrible historical analysis.
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:47 AM   #85
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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There are good reasons why this is a terrible historical analysis.
And you failed to name them. Why?
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:28 PM   #86
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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And you failed to name them. Why?
I failed to name them because they're really quite apparent when you stop and think about it (or perhaps take the time to look up actual historical analyses). Your analysis is pretty bad on its face and reads as someone who is speculating on a historical time period which they know very little about.

Among the reasons why you're probably wrong is the fact that if it were really driven by hope for peasants, then it is incredibly unlikely to have spread as quickly as it did. Indeed, Christianity spread so quickly because it spread through trade routes and port cities. Although there were certainly poor among the converts, the spreading probably would not have come primarily through the peasant class as that would require substantial mobility.

Perhaps if you took some time to Google the question and find some reputable historians commenting on it you might find that you're doing better than simply picking ideas off the top of your head.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:40 AM   #87
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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I failed to name them because they're really quite apparent when you stop and think about it (or perhaps take the time to look up actual historical analyses). Your analysis is pretty bad on its face and reads as someone who is speculating on a historical time period which they know very little about.

Among the reasons why you're probably wrong is the fact that if it were really driven by hope for peasants, then it is incredibly unlikely to have spread as quickly as it did. Indeed, Christianity spread so quickly because it spread through trade routes and port cities. Although there were certainly poor among the converts, the spreading probably would not have come primarily through the peasant class as that would require substantial mobility.

Perhaps if you took some time to Google the question and find some reputable historians commenting on it you might find that you're doing better than simply picking ideas off the top of your head.
While I agree with you that infrastructure (especially Roman and Roman-inspired infrastructure) helped spread Christianity, I do think that Christianity has an appeal to the poor sections of society which shouldn't be overlooked. Jesus is in the Bible a hero of sorts to the downtrodden.
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Old 12-15-2017, 04:52 PM   #88
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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While I agree with you that infrastructure (especially Roman and Roman-inspired infrastructure) helped spread Christianity, I do think that Christianity has an appeal to the poor sections of society which shouldn't be overlooked. Jesus is in the Bible a hero of sorts to the downtrodden.
I don't deny that it had appeal to poor sections of society. One of the reasons it did has less to do with the abstract long term hope, but because Christianity provided direct support to the poor.

For example:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...hy/appeal.html

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WELFARE INSTITUTIONS
Now we have increasingly in the Christian churches, in the time up to Constantine, the establishment of hospitals, of some kind of health service, we have a clear establishment of social service - everything from soup kitchens to money for the poor if they need it. We have the very important establishment of the institution of widows, because a widow in the Roman society who had lost her husband and did not have money of her own was at the very bottom of the social ladder. One of the first welfare institutions we find in the church was all the widows who were recognized as virgins of the church, considered particularly precious possessions of the church; they were paid by the church and therefore were rescued from utter poverty in most instances.

Christianity really established a realm of mutual social support for the members that joined the church. And I think that this was probably in the long run an enormously important factor for the success of the Christian mission. And it was for that very reason that Constantine saw that the only thing that would rescue the empire is to take over the institutions that the Christians had already built up, [including], by that time, institutions of education in reading and writing, because Christians wanted to have their members knowledgeable and capable of reading the Bible.... We find that in administration of the last pagan emperors, before Constantine, at the very end of the third century, a large number of the people in the imperial administration are Christians, because they could read and write. Which constituted a big problem with the persecution of the Christians because they were thrown out of their office first when the persecution began, and suddenly the government didn't work anymore.

One should not see the success of Christianity simply on the level of a great religious message; one has to see it also in the consistent and very well thought out establishment of institutions to serve the needs of the community.
Here's the second sentence of the poster's analysis:

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They were willing to full-heartedly believe in something just to make their lives more bearable which is that, in the end, Salvation is waiting for them.
The thing that made their lives more bearable was the creation of a social support structure to help them with their lives, not because life was so bad that abstract hope made life bearable.

But it's worth noting that the financing for the social support networks couldn't have come from just the peasant class, as the peasant class didn't have the financial means to create such a safety net. There were plenty of people with means who helped to finance those structures. It's clearly insufficient to say "their lives were so miserable" when you include that there was appeal to people whose lives weren't that miserable.
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Old 12-16-2017, 10:46 AM   #89
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

The relief of poverty to a certain extent certainly helped the poor but the belief in a salvation, also did, too. If you want someone credible that says it then it is Napoleon Bonaparte. He said that he liked Christianity because it kept the lower classes content with their lot in life because they had salvation to look forward to. Napoleon probably meant that it kept them from being rebellious or more rebellious.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:28 PM   #90
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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The relief of poverty to a certain extent certainly helped the poor but the belief in a salvation, also did, too.
I don't deny that. But your argument was terrible and doesn't support your thesis. I'll break it down for you sentence-by-sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentence 1
I think that Christianity becoming so popular partly shows how miserable the lives of peasants were in the past.
No. The popularity of Christianity doesn't count as evidence of "how miserable the lives of peasants were in the past." Yes, they didn't live great lives. No, Christianity's popularity is absurdly weak evidence of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentence 2
They were willing to full-heartedly believe in something just to make their lives more bearable which is that, in the end, Salvation is waiting for them.
This is also a poor historical analysis. The assertion that they believed "just to make their lives more bearable [because] Salvation is waiting for them" is false. The reason for belief was much more than "just to make their lives more bearable" on the basis of abstract future salvation. It's clearly the case that present tense concerns dominated. Yes, there was some sense of abstract hope in the future, but abstract hope is not enough. (Especially considering that the early church was persecuted and Christians were viewed with fear and disdain.)

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Originally Posted by Sentence 3
A non-religious example is the Taiping Rebellion where the peasants were recruited in droves because of the promise of a planned paradisal place that they might reside in and they because zealous fighters for this dream.
So... while I admit I don't know much about Chinese history, it seems really strange that you're claiming that a political uprising is evidence of support of a "planned paradisal place" as the driving mechanism. Doesn't the the fact that they were taking political/militaristic action imply that there was a very real place that they were trying to create?

Also, at least at a cursory glance, I see very few parallels in the structure of early Christianity and in the Taiping Rebellion. Early Christianity was relatively docile. It simply existed within the political structure without trying to overturn it. It did certainly upset the social structures by claiming to bring together cultures that have historically been against each other. And it wasn't a unified local movement, especially after it got scattered under persecution.

----

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If you want someone credible that says it then it is Napoleon Bonaparte.
LOL -- Because Napoleon Bonaparte is a renowned historian that is known for insightful analysis of religion in first century Rome? This isn't helping you argue that you actually know what you're talking about here.

Quote:
He said that he liked Christianity because it kept the lower classes content with their lot in life because they had salvation to look forward to. Napoleon probably meant that it kept them from being rebellious or more rebellious.
You're welcome to try to interpret Napoleon however you choose. But if I were you, I wouldn't use that as support for your argument regarding the historical accuracy of your basic claim.
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:30 AM   #91
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

@Aaron W. Sentence 1: How do you arrive at your claim about my Sentence 1 claim? You didn't provide any support.
Sentence 2: I didn't say that in order to make their lives more bearable was the sole reason for their belief. I said that it was partly the reason or one of their reasons but it was a big part of it for the peasants, the new converts.
Sentence 3: A "planned paradise-like place" can be a real place or a non-real one.
Napoleon knows how Christianity effects the peasantry during his time. That's what I was talking about.
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Old 12-18-2017, 12:51 PM   #92
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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Originally Posted by mcpon14 View Post
@Aaron W. Sentence 1: How do you arrive at your claim about my Sentence 1 claim? You didn't provide any support.
I could say the same of you. But unlike you, I provided a link to information provided by experts and none of that remotely points towards your explanation as being a primary driver of religious adherence.

Quote:
Sentence 2: I didn't say that in order to make their lives more bearable was the sole reason for their belief. I said that it was partly the reason or one of their reasons but it was a big part of it for the peasants, the new converts.
You're not helping yourself here. If by "partly" you mean "pretty much negligibly" then sure. The problem you have is that it's not like Christianity was the *ONLY* religion that offered abstract future hope. "Salvation in the end." For example, there was the cult of Isis and Mithraism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

Quote:
Wife and mourner

Sculpture of a woman, possibly Isis, in a pose of mourning
Isis is part of the Ennead of Heliopolis, a family of nine gods descended from the creator god, Atum or Ra. She and her siblings—Osiris, Set, and Nephthys—are the last generation of the Ennead, born to Geb, god of the earth, and Nut, goddess of the sky. The creator god, the world's original ruler, passes down his authority through the male generations of the Ennead, so that Osiris becomes king. Isis, who is Osiris' wife as well as his sister, is his queen.[18]

Set kills Osiris and, in several versions of the story, dismembers his corpse. Isis and Nephthys, along with other deities such as Anubis, search for the pieces of their brother's body and reassemble it. Their efforts are the mythic prototype for mummification and other ancient Egyptian funerary practices.[19] According to some texts, they must also protect Osiris' body from further desecration by Set or his servants.[20] In this phase of the myth, Isis and Nephthys were often envisioned as kites. This form may be inspired by a similarity between the kites' calls and the cries of wailing women,[21] or by a metaphor likening the kite's search for carrion to the goddesses' search for their dead brother.[22] Isis is the epitome of a mourning widow. Her and Nephthys' love and grief for their brother help restore him to life, as does Isis' recitation of magical spells.[23] Various funerary texts contain speeches by Isis in which she expresses her sorrow at Osiris' death, her sexual desire for him, and even anger that he has left her. All these emotions play a part in his revival, as they are meant to stir him into action.[24] Finally, Isis restores breath and life to Osiris' body and copulates with him, conceiving their son, Horus.[19] From this point Osiris lives on only in the Duat, or underworld. But by producing a son and heir to avenge his death and carry out funerary rites for him, Isis has ensured that her husband will endure in the afterlife.[25]

Isis' role in afterlife beliefs was based on that in the myth. She helped to restore the souls of deceased humans to wholeness as she had done for Osiris. Like other goddesses, such as Hathor, she also acted as a mother to the deceased, providing protection and nourishment.[26] Thus, like Hathor, she sometimes took the form of Imentet, the goddess of the west, who welcomed the deceased soul into the afterlife as her child.[27] But for much of Egyptian history, male deities like Osiris were believed to provide the regenerative powers, including sexual potency, that were crucial for rebirth. Isis merely assisted by stimulating this power.[26] Feminine divine powers became more important in afterlife beliefs in the late New Kingdom,[28] various Ptolemaic funerary texts emphasize that Isis took the active role in Horus' conception by stimulating her inert husband,[29] and some tomb decoration from the Roman period in Egypt suggests that by that time Isis had taken on a central role in the afterlife.[30]
http://www.isvroma.it/public/pecus/nasstrom.pdf

Quote:
Abstract:

...

The sacrifice of the bull is the standard feature in most of the sanctuaries. Mithras himself forces the bull down with his left knee and seizes the bull´s nostrils with his left hand, while he stabs the animal right behind the shoulder. This deed promoted mankind and earth with a lot of beneficial things, a reflection of the old Persian religion like the fact that Mithras performs the sacrifice, although unwillingly. In the mysteries the sacrifice of the bull symbolized a salvation for mankind, who gained the benefit of its blood. The soldiers who shed their blood for the Roman Empire could therefore identify themselves with the slaying of the Bull and the victorious Mithras.
So the facts do not support that this appeal is anything special and thus provides little support for the adherence to Christianity that is observed.

Quote:
Sentence 3: A "planned paradise-like place" can be a real place or a non-real one.
Right... Because this broadening of your position makes it stronger? Or better? That the best thing you have in a parallel between two movements is that both have a "planned paradise-like place" to inspire belief, where "planned paradise-like place" means an either real or imagined place in the future? Why not just go full Godwin and say that Christians were just like the Nazis in this respect?

Quote:
Napoleon knows how Christianity effects the peasantry during his time. That's what I was talking about.
Because you know that 100% of the time when political leaders make claims that they're accurate and don't reflect any type of internal biases of presuppositions about the world. Just ask Trump.

Wouldn't it be just more intellectually honest to just admit you did zero research into the question and that you were merely speculating off the top of your head, so that you can actually learn something from this interaction as opposed to looking like a stubborn idiot?
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Old 12-25-2017, 07:10 PM   #93
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

^ @Aaron W. You are the one that looks like a stubborn idiot. I made good points and you are just too stubborn to give them any merit. You are too close-minded to debate with. You just want to hear the sound of your own voice. Get off of your high-horse, dude and quit putting yourself on such a high pedestal. You act like your fart don't stink.
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Old 12-26-2017, 01:26 PM   #94
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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I made good points and you are just too stubborn to give them any merit.
Nah. When you accuse me of not providing support for my argument when I'm the only one who has linked to anything from an expert, you lose all credibility. You could easily have provided a link to a historian making your argument if you had a reasonable point. You haven't. I wonder why.

The "merit" of your argument is what, exactly? The repeated assertion that the abstract concept of salvation at some point in the future is what made Christianity popular? Some comparison with a political movement in China whose only similarity is that your concept of an abstract concept of salvation can include both literal and imagined futures?

Quote:
You are too close-minded to debate with. You just want to hear the sound of your own voice. Get off of your high-horse, dude and quit putting yourself on such a high pedestal. You act like your fart don't stink.
My farts stink something foul. But that observation doesn't negate the fact that you've put forth nothing of intellectual merit in your argument.
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:27 AM   #95
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Re: The Origin(s) of Christianity? (Horus of Egypt)

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At Antioch My disciples were called ‘Christians’ for the first time. It was not easy to be a Christian because these people had to hide, or they could be martyred. Even now, My faithful are being persecuted for being Christians. A time is coming when My faithful will have to hide at My refuges as the Antichrist and the evil ones will try to kill you.”
/Jesus Christ

http://www.johnleary.com/index.php/p...t=3&order=DESC

remind them of the first Christians who loved Me more than their own life;

http://www . tl ig.org/en/messages/115/


The Truth comes from God. The Truth will live on to the end of time. The Truth w
ill be revealed in its entirety, soon, and then it will cut through the hearts o
f those who refused My Hand of intervention. Then, My Army will rise together in the Glory of God to proclaim the True Word of God until the last day. They will bring with them the souls of pagans who will realise that there is only one God. It will not be the pagans who will not accept Me. Instead, it will be the souls of Christians who were given the Truth but who will fall into grave error. It is for these Christian souls that I pine for the most and it is for them that I ask you to pray, every hour of the day.

Your Beloved Jesus

https://fatherofloveandmercy.wordpre...east-expect-2/

Quote:
only a ‘Christian’ life - that is, a life like Christ’s, of devotion, obedience, and faithfulness to the Father, of constant generosity - obtain for your spirits that purification and sensitivity which can allow you to receive God and his ministers in such a perceptible manner as to give you the joy of vision and the joy of simply inspired or really spoken words.
http://www.notebook44.strefa.pl/jan_8.htm



I John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
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