As was proposed, here it is.

Megenoita and co., make your points.

Concerto, Jib and Co, make yours.

GO.

A topic worth discussing. Thing is, the only "eternal barbecuers" who seem willing to carry on a sustained defense of their doctrine are atheists. There are maybe 3 or 4 "annihilationists" (I dislike -isms and prefer to go where the study leads me), though maybe more will turn up.

Anyway, for starters I'll repost the following citations showing eternal life is possible only through salvation. That is, whatever you may think "eternal punishment" consists of, it occurs after death (in which state one does not feel anything, including pain).

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:35-36 "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can i be on the universalist or there is no heaven and hell team?

By the way this is between Theists only. Atheists please don't get in the way of their debate.

ok. but the old adage of two bald men fighting over a comb doth spring to mind..........

He said theists only, not atheists only...

Which side are you going to take? Both?

i'm not an atheist.

Not saying you are.

My point was that 2 atheists debating this issue is like 2 bald men fighting over a brush, not if 2 theists were to debate this.

and mine was two thiests would be like two bald men fighting over a comb because they'd both be wrong.

it was just a joke anyway. ye christians have no sense of humour.

I say Hell is eternal because.... it's the official position of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church Jesus founded at Pentecost. Wee, don't have to think for myself. Thank you, thank you <bows out>

Seriously though, A Case for Faith has a chapter dealing with this question in favor of Eternal punishment.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3925352/St...Case-for-Faith

Go to page 113, it's in the 6th interview.

Here's the objections answered (to pique your interest into actually reading it)

Objection 1: How Can God Send Children to Hell?
Objection 2: Why Does Everyone Suffer the Same in Hell?
Objection 3: Why Are People Punished Infinitely for Finite Crimes?
Objection 4: Couldn't God Force Everyone to Go to Heaven?
Objection 5: Why Doesn't God Just Snuff People Out?
Objection 6: How Can Hell Exist Alongside of Heaven?
Objection 7: Why Didn't God Create Only Those He Knew Would Follow Him?
Objection 8: Why Doesn't God Give People a Second Chance?
Objection 9: Isn't Reincarnation More Rational Than Hell?

For the purpose of this thread, I would appreciate it if you would present an argument instead of dropping a link to a collection of other people's arguments. And especially a biblical argument.

PS: 1, 3, and 4 are laughable. I stopped at 4 when I tired of the absurdity.

Hey, I linked a free book with a lot of good answers. Just sayin.

But fine, whatever.

1. Pentecost, 33AD, was the start of Jesus's Church.
2. This Church was known as the Catholic Church. The original apostles handed down their power to others through apostolic succession.
3. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truths. The men whom succeeded the apostles determined it was only during certain times that the Holy Spirit would lead 100% infallibly.
4. During one of those times, it was taught that Hell is Eternal.

...thus Hell is eternal.

(Note, the Eastern Orthodox Church claims to start at 33 AD, but they also teaches Hell is Eternal.)

Even if you don't believe in all this, the fact that the two main churches who stretched to 33AD, Orthodox and Catholic, both believe in eternal hell has to mean something.

I'm impressed. I stopped 3/4 of the way through 3.

I recently came across an exegesis that corrects the hell is eternal punishment doctrine and after researching into it further it more and more appears very possible that there is a hell but its duration is not of the length currently promoted by most traditional views.

Though posting on here for a long time has convinced me that atheists have no respect for God I still feel the obligation to defend God's name absolutely and if there is the smallest chance the mainstream hell doctrine is keeping anyone from repentance I think it becomes necessary to correct it so that people have time to reconsider and repent. Else why was I allowed to come across this interpretation which hinges on certain words in the bible: aion, olam, etc.

All Saved: http://becomingone.org/nm/nm13.htm

The Hidden Aeonian Realm: http://www.growthingod.org.uk/aeonrelm.htm

Universal Reconciliation: http://www.growthingod.org.uk/unirec.htm

Bibles Without Everlasting Punishment: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter10.html

More consideration of the word aion and ainios: http://www****christ.info/allin.htm

(Highly unlikely I will be arguing this. This is a time for deep reflection on the additional information more than it is a time for arguing.)

Excellent link. I really appreciate this. I've been meaning to read some Moreland and think I probably will now.

From the part on hell:

Moreland's position is very similar to Lewis' and others. I've always rejected the charge that God tortures anyone, anytime, much less for eternity. So the choice that was presented to me was either God does what is obviously incompatible with His character, or annihilationism. That's a no-brainer. What Lewis and Moreland present is a 3rd alternative, and I agree with it completely if annihilationism isn't true. I'm not dogmatic about either - bottom line for me is the goal of life is to be conformed to the image of Christ, to overcome the evil nature we have and be transformed into the being God intended for us to be, all of which is preparation for an eternity of unbelievable joy - and to miss that, whether you exist pathetically in your own little world for eternity or are simply snuffed out of existence, is certainly a horrible punishment which you bring on yourself needlessly.

BTW, if Sub is still out there somewhere, the above quote is yet another example, in addition to the many I've already provided, of how one rejects God.

I've alwasy had problem with the hell torture chamber as well. I personally believe that those who go to hell will be tormented greater at first, in punishment for their sins, much like those in purgatory are (I forget the word for this.)

Then once that's done, their greatest punishment left over will be the despair from the eternal separation from God. They know they could have chosen God during life but they didn't because of their pride. They will be surrounded by others like them, but totally alone.

That's just what I believe.

Jerok,

What do you believe day to day life will be like after the initial tormenting?

Are we going to be alive in the sense that we walk around, eat, sleep, have thoughts, etc. like we do now?

And the despair we'll experience from being separated from God, is that going to come from how miserable our surroundings will be, or because you think we'll want to be with God once we're dead since then we'll know he exists? Or both?

Just looking for your thoughts, I won't even respond if you reply to this.

Sorry, I still don't get it.

If you recall, I asked: "What behaviors are denoted by 'rejecting God'? In particular, how can I tell if a particular person (say, me) rejects God?"

Nothing in the Moreland quote answers that question. I read it twice and I still have no idea how to identify if I---much less, anyone else---rejects God.

Notready, Jerok, have you ever heard of psychological torture?

This is what God would be doing with separation, and it makes him just as evil. He sends you to some eternal equivalent of a supermax prison cell, and rubs it in your face for eternity that you can't get into heaven while you languish with nothing to do all day.

This may not be as bad as burning alive forever, but It's still torture, and still unjust, and still makes God a monster.

Why would you pass the buck onto God?

Haven't you ever heard that some people are incorrigible.

You've never heard anyone say about themselves or another person that "It wouldn't have done any good."

The incorrigible seem to be a class of people that are constantly overlooked on here in the scenarios people like to frame.

The Bible explicitly says there is eternal punishment, so no one is going to argue against that.

IMO the question before the forum should be, "What does the eternal punishment the Bible refers to consists of?" Or, "Does the Bible anywhere say those in hell are alive at the time?"

I don't know how you're defining incorrigible, but whatever the definition, surely there are non-Christians that aren't incorrigible, that would be unjustly sent to this prison all the same.

I don't know.

I'm just pointing out that there is a class of people that nobody ever seems to conceive of on here: The incorrigible.

What's their excuse?

All you have to do is read the bible. A main message is "examine yourself". It seems they are ignoring the message because they always pass the buck.

Annihilation would be infinitely more just than eternal torture.