This occurs just before the Last Judgment, followed by the new heavens and the new earth, ie, the end of this age.

We never get that far.

I've got to re-read revelations. Doesn't it imply that someone (something) else is doing the tormenting for ever and ever - someone or something NOT the devil? What holds the devil in the lake of fire forever that he can't get out? Is God the one torturing him directly? Holding him down under the molten sulfur? Was the devil doing it before, and after that its God?

Makes me wonder where the devil is chillin right now.

Tangent- how does 'morality' make sense in this context? Er, I can't figure out how to phrase this terribly well at the moment. You are presumably perfectly capable of donating more to the cause of orphans. But you don't do it. It follows that this is not much of a priority (for you). Morality consists of all kinds of actions that you do not participate in and perhaps will never do so even when you are perfectly capable of doing so? When people say such things it is very difficult to take morality seriously. Sounds like what you are calling morality is purely emotional-- 'the idea of helping orphans is pleasing'. Although not as pleasing as doing something else, because you aren't doing it. Really it's just this abstract idea of helping orphans that is pleasing.

Um, so yeah I don't know why I felt compelled to say any of this and it isn't particularly thought out.

No they're not. Come on. For who knows how long in the history of human culture it rarely crossed anyone's mind that treating women as subservient was immoral. Now all of a sudden many (more) people 'innately' feel it is wrong. This is... unlikely. I don't mean to suggest you really believe otherwise (ie that women ought be subservient) only that it is implausible that this has anything to do with morality, strictly speaking.

So why did the idea begin to spread that we ought treat women better? Not sure. I highly doubt it has anything to do with 'moral geniuses' throughout history, unless this simply means 'people with good ideas'. Like it wasn't some moral genius who decided to attach two wheels and make a bicycle. It was simply a good idea and it caught on. I think 'morality' operates similarly.

I'll check back tomorrow. Mods feel free to make this into a new thread. I'm lazy. It's an interesting topic and I'd like feedback.

Jibninjas?

Gehenna (translated "hell"), the city dump of Jerusalem, is a metaphor for how the unrepentant sinner ends up: in the corruption of death. Human bodies were literally burned at Gehenna, by the way. The grave is also used metaphorically in the same way.

No, I think you're right. 'Morality', as used in this thread vis-a-vis bunny's definition of 'rejecting God', is little more than a derivative emotional palette.

Ok i shouldn't have used the word innate or i should of qualified it. When i say innate i mean that treating women in the way the bible says for me to would feel internally wrong. If you dont want to call that feeling morals idk. To me morals are just what i think or feel is right and wrong so i would say it qualifies.

Ok...so why should I believe you over Megenoita's version of Gehenna which is also a metaphor, but for Hell? They're both metaphors for a supernatural end point. I don't understand how the Gehenna argument counters the Hell/Eternal torment argument? Aren't you both just claiming to have the right metaphor?

I'm not sure I entirely follow your argument here. A few points though which may clear things up.

Gehenna is not a metaphor for hell. Gehenna is hell. The second word is merely the English translation of the first in the original text.

As to Gehenna being a metaphor, it clearly has to be for the verses containing it to have any sort of broad application, which, in context, they are evidently intended to.

However, the events set in Gehenna are also literal:

Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

"hell" = Gehenna

The above passage quotes the following:

Isaiah 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I understand that. Gehenna, Hell, either way you want to say it, could be a metaphor for Hell(the spiritual dimension).

Could you perhaps clarify how these two verses prove that Gehenna is a metaphor for annihilation and not eternal torment in a fiery dimension? I don't understand how these prove your case. It seems like they could be talking about a Hell the spiritual dimension too, if it were metaphorical. That's the whole thing I don't understand. It appears like you're just claiming that the metaphor means annihilation and not eternal damnation. But not backing that up with logic for why?

Concerto?

Isaiah 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

"hell" = Gehenna

The passage in Mark quotes the passage in Isaiah, so the subject matter is the same. The second passage is about "hell" (Gehenna), so therefore the first is too. The first passage describes those who have transgressed against God as being carcasses (which were disposed of in Gehenna), meaning they are dead and not being tortured. Therefore, those in "hell" in the second passage are also dead in the unquenchable fire where the worm dieth not.

I see no need for either a fiery parallel dimension or everlasting torture in any of this.

Just interesting to note: hell was not officially declared "eternal" until 544 A.D. under the Emperor Justinian