These are dogmas of Christianity, of little comfort to those outside it, mostly just a denial of what is obviously true to atheists.

I think there is a tension here that you don't want to admit. Maybe on some level what you say is true of me, but if so it is not apparent to my conscious mind. I'm not anti-Christian particularly, but I've done my due diligence on its intellectual basis and the only possible path for me to accept Christianity's dogmas would be to disregard my rational doubts towards its claims. Kant said the motto of the Enlightenment is, "Have the courage to use your own understanding." That's been central to my own intellectual life, but it seems to me like you think giving this up is necessary to becoming Christian.

Well, still not consciously aware of this so I'll have to wait. I sin against others and myself, but not any god that I know of.

A very Taoist view of good and evil. However, under this view shouldn't the tests be moral rather than intellectual? Why hide the fact that there is a god if knowing there is one who rewards good behavior creates such a huge incentive for people to be good?

I see Existentialism as true in that I agree that the starting point for the individual is the question of how to respond to “existential angst”. Theological questions would be secondary and viewed solely within the Existentialist framework for the individual.

In other words, I think it is critical to stay in the first person, subjective perspective and not get sucked into the “objective” perspective that theological questions can take us in. I am very much a Perspectivist in the Nietzschean sense. Bottom-up truth rather than top-down.

because if everyone knew it for a fact, then everyone would do it and nobody would learn and grow

Why not? Lots of people know that they should have a healthier diet, but still eat unhealthy food. Or that they shouldn't cheat on their spouse, but do so anyway. Look at the criminal justice system. Tons of people know that committing a crime makes it more likely they'll go to prison, but do so anyway.

Ignorance is one reason people do what is wrong, but not the only one.

people only commit crimes (in general) because they believe they wont get caught

if you knew you would go to hell forever for doing x, if you knew it with 100% certainty, you woudlnt do it

Regarding God being hidden, from an evolutionary perspective there are evolutionary filters with one of them being a socially reinforced version of God. At the group level, any group that did not have this was either outcompeted or integrated into one that did. Further, civilizations that adjust their version of God to be more in line with the real God outcompete those that don’t.

If you accept that perspective on evolution as I have, then it is impossible for God to be fully hidden in modern times. At the individual level, I see it by design that we are to find ourselves alienated from God which makes Atheism salient. From the Atheist perspective God is hidden, but from my perspective, the Atheist is alienated or disconnected.

Where I differ from a Theist is that I see the alienated Atheist as closer to God than the Theist who is connected to the evolved, socially reinforced version of God.

Do you also prefer legal systems with unclear or secret laws so we can test people on their willingness to break the law?

i think our system wants people to break the law because of profit


but i dont find that relevant to this conversation

it's not what i want, but i am tooking about my theory of God's plan

Seems pretty relevant to the conversation. Your theory of God's plan is that He leaves it unclear whether He exists as a test for people like me. I would describe a legal system that punishes people for breaking the law, when it is unclear what the laws are, or even whether there is a government making laws at all, as unfair. Similarly, such a test on the part of a god seems unfair, especially with such high stakes.

I don't think it's unfair

Okay, fair enough. My view is that it is unfair to punish people for laws they aren't aware of unless their ignorance is itself culpable.

Can there be such a thing as a non-consciously held belief, within epistemology?

Suppressed knowledge/belief sounds self-defeating by definition - a suppressed belief is no longer held as a belief (off topic, it makes me think about the controversy surrounding suppressed memories, and tricking the mind into accepting falsely implanted memories via hypnosis etc).

So, is there any epistemological justification for suppressed knowledge/ belief?

claimed atheists begin to pray during a crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pray-says-poll

this implies they have a non-conscious belief in God

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Asked if he believed in God, he said: “I don’t know but I would describe myself at the sceptical end of agnosticism. I certainly wouldn’t classify myself as religious.”

Does it, though?
And for those who do not pray during a crisis, does that imply they do not have a non-conscious belief in God?

I'd be interested to hear where you got this idea from (putting aside the small detail of how "the real God" would be known to be!).

That's pure koolaid talking. You are miming the religion.

In reality, if you want to test a human being's character and morality, test for something valuable ... like courage, honesty, diligence ... not faith. Faith is vapid gullibility ... sold and packaged by religion as the good, and now they are hooked and unable to question honestly, because if they don't believe they aren't good. That is, if they don't believe in talking serpents, a loving god who kills and tortures more than all sinful humans combined. I'll interrupt myself.

If your daughter sins offer her a deal: forgiveness on your terms or you are taking her to the basement to torture her forever. Be like your god. Be Christlike. Torture for wrongdoing because you are so loving.

Firstly christ isn't my God

Secondly what you're basically saying is you know what's right and anyone who believes God is drinking kool-aid

Sounds openminded

My activity on this forum is skeptical, critical, independent. What you just wrote is evil. You are so stuck in the religion's paradigm and doctrine that you can't glimpse it. I suspect you are very young so I forgive it.

You have no idea what you are doing with that religion. You cling to it blindly and desperately for subconscious reasons. The result of this is the exact opposite of how you are using it is what comes out of your mouth.

A few years ago I was watching a game on TV with some Christians. An atheism ad came on. Their comments afterward all had to be completely withdrawn when I challenged them about the very nature of being American. To wit: THEY HAD NO CLUE HOW THEY WERE USING THE RELIGION AND WHEN IT WAS POINTED OUT TO THEM THEY NEARLY SHYT AND WITHDREW ALL THEIR ANTI-AMERICAN COMMENTS (such as about atheists should not be allowed on TV, are evil, like one of our presidents a few years back, was it Bush I? that said atheists should not be allowed to vote. Then when it is spelled out for them how immoral and unAmerican that is, it dawns on them about 1% how they are actually using their religion).

One of these Karen's the other day, venting overt racism, blurted out that her target was "going to hell," and then was so embarrassed and ashamed to be exposed as to how she was really wielding the religion, that she ran off. This the rule, not the exception. Illusion and self-delusion is the name of the game in religion.

Maybe I have a reading comprehension problem, but your "response" to the text of mine that you quotied had literally NOTHING to do with what I said in the text of mine you quoted.

Oxymoron much?

this whole premise is silly

we know it hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. if it was, there would be 1 worldwide religion

so i am not sure what you were actually trying to prove or provoke in discussion here

mets, just trying to figure out why many believe that "scores of prophesies" are proven.

I'm just curious.

because people believe they have
people have faith

why do you believe there is no god if that is what you believe

is there any evidence?