Ah ok, so this is basically a test of what many people have claimed happened to them, rather than a test of the existence of a soul or whatever.

Great post. Nothing I can disagree with here.
Generalization is generally a bad thing .

A 'soul' is really just one word for something like this. If this proves to be true some will claim it is your 'soul' others will claim something else.

It really is a test of the non-physical world and I think would be strongest direct evidence for mind-body dualism. As Tao pointed out this would not directly prove a 'soul' or any specific form of theism.

I prefer the maxim, "All generalisations are bad", but yeah, great minds think alike...


H

Tao1 my man, how long have you got?

*big sigh as I ponder how long to type for and what to include/leave out*

Serious illness.

No.

Both and neither. Hard to nail down. More real than dreamlike, as a memory, although as an experience it was incredibly vivid and "real", moreso than a dream or indeed waking reality. If you want my opinion, and you might not :-) it was a level of reality akin to both dreams and waking life, but slightly different to both.

Between 85 and 95% in terms of entirety, but 100% on the details I do remember.

1. I become consciously aware for the first time, I am floating up through a tunnel, I pop out into a dark night-time country landscape, open flats of grass, autumn or dead trees with no leaves on; looking down I see that I have emerged through something akin to a rabbit-hole.

2. A creature best described as a giant rabid bulldog on steroids is now jumping up and snapping at me. I am taken aback by its ferocity and apparent desire to do me such immediate harm, as I have never seen it before. It feels personal.

3. It locks its jaws around one of my ears and pulls me to the ground, I manage to get away somehow and float back upwards out of its reach.

4. I land a short distance away, the dog now gone (or perhaps tethered), I look across to a slight hill on the distance where stand two reaper/wraiths. Their torn black garbs blowing in the wind being the only visible signs of movement. I can see that underneath their hoods they do not have faces, only an impossible void of nothingness. I feel encouraged that although I can see them, they are a little way away from me and they are not looking in my direction. For some reason I would have been far more worried had they been paying me particular attention.

5. My feet are on the ground now, and I am walking as opposed to floating. I make my way over to a place where the dead trees have netted together in an over-arching mish-mash of branches and roots to form a tunnel. I come in just at an intersection, like a doorway into it, I can see it go on indefinitely in both directions, looking both left and right, I can see that a short distance in either direction it becomes the same void that was under the reapers' hoods. absolute annihilation and nothingness, a concept that is impossible to even imagine in our day-to-day lives, but very real in this tunnel and this shadowy place I have come to. For some reason I feel drawn to the right, and feel that this is the direction of something.

6. I teeter on the edge of this tunnel, leaning my body over to peer in both directions but never actually setting foot on the path, another pointer I find very encouraging; I am witnessing the long dark tunnel, but it is not yet my time to set foot inside it and make the journey, as such.

7. That is my last solid memory, I think at this point I kind of started floating back towards the rabbit-hole and get sucked out of the landscape, but I cannot be 100% on this.

All in all I got the impression that I was visiting the in-between world of life/death, but that it wasn't my time to fully explore it, as in 1. I escaped the dog 2. the death characters weren't acknowledging my presence 3. I didn't set foot on the tunnel path 4. (obviously) I left and came back to the land of the living.

The whole environment was dark and impossibly charged with an intense despair and immediate feeling in my absolute heart of hearts that "NO!! THIS IS REALLY HAPPENING. I'M NOT PREPARED FOR THIS, IT'S SO MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN ANY TROUBLE I'VE EVER BEEN IN BEFORE. THIS IS REAL, THERE'S NO GOING BACK, NOBODY COMING TO BAIL ME OUT. HOW THE H*L DID THIS HAPPEN TO ME?!??!?!?" It was a place where you could no longer kid yourself. It was utter despair.


Very much, and this is the most interesting part.

I had NO spiritual beliefs prior to this, it was the catalyst for my pursuit of spiritual truths to try and figure out what I had been through and to be brutally honest, to try and avoid going back there the next time I "died". I wasn't living a very positive lifestyle at the time, and spiritually I was completely a non factor, and I felt that this may have contributed to such a negative NDE. I went from being a 0% believer to a 100% believer overnight, I felt I had experienced a spiritual reality that my consciousness had visited without my body, and that this was indeed the place I would go to on my bodily death, if I didn't make an effort to live a positive spiritual life, or perhaps even if I did, I don't know.

The things I experienced were nothing original to me however, and this is the real interesting stuff. Research into the literature brought up the symbol of the guard dog of the underworld, classically represented by Cerberus in Greek mythology, some aspects of Anubis in Egyptian mythology, etc.

Also the idea of visiting other realms of reality through "rabbit-holes", another esoteric staple, probably most famously used as a plot device in Alice in Wonderland, but a serious esoteric symbol nonetheless.

The reaper characters pretty much need no introduction, neither does this long dark tunnel.

It was pretty heavy, and although on the one hand I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, on the other hand I could argue it was the single most important thing that happened to me, and I am grateful for what it has subsequently given me. Had my body died at that time I believe 100% that I would have been left there fully sentient and, pardon the expression, up sh*t creek without a paddle.



H

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus

In particular, "The perceived meaning of Erebus is "darkness", but the first recorded instance of it was "place of darkness between earth and Hades". Erebh means sunset, or evening"

Although admittedly broad, this sums up pretty plum the place I experienced.



H

Thank you for sharing that.

Hainsey, do you think that all conscious beings inc. dogs, ants, birds would have to go through this same process?

Also, have you considered whether there is ever an end to it? do we just continue through different realities for eternity?

Also, thanks for providing such a vivid description of ur experience.

Put me in with the ton of people. I dont think this study, if show to be true, will necessarily prove NDE are non physical. Because they could still be a product or projection of the near dead material brain.

I don't understand how that is possible. How can being almost dead just allow you to view things out of your natural line of sight?

How does being almost dead just allow our thoughts to become non physical? My answer is the same as for both, i dont know how either would be possible.

But my guess, if NED are apart of the brain and not non physical, would be they are connected in some way to the various peoples who have reported seeing things out of their natural line of sight. Like Buddhist monks, Native American shamans, remote viewers... So i would have to adjust my WV to look at both possibility's, and probably a few more.

First off, be clear that we are speaking specifically about OBE's not just NDE's when we are talking about the study.

I understand that others have reported seeing things out of their natural line of sight, but the question is is this possible. I don't see how you can just say that if this study proves positive that there is a natural (meaning materialist) explanation. That seems like a huge stretch.

Maybe there is some confusion here. Are you familiar with the study that I am referring to?

Buddhist monks, Native American shamans and remote viewers all have reported OBE"s. You could through in the astral travelers too.

Idk.

Im not saying there would be a materialist explanation im saying there could be.

No, but i've read a bit about this kid of stuff. Ill read it but if you could just explain based on this study why my possible explanation is not possible it would be easier.

What the study sets out to do is place object or words in high places around the room in a manner that they could only be seen from being above and looking down.

So if someone truly has an OBE and not just drug educed experience like an OBE then they would be able to report what these objects or words are. If they are only having an experience that simulates an OBE then they would not see such objects as they would not be in the mind previously to perceive.

So in essence if they were able to report these objects back then that would be pretty strong evidence that they were actually floating above their bodies. And I don't see anyway that this could be hand waved over

All of those things could be done by Buddhist monks....if they have the ability to see out of their line of sight. Look im not saying its true. Im saying to me its just as plausible as our thoughts being able to survive without our brain.

rofl

Ok i read the op.

If they test for brain waves it would mean everything someone sees after the death of the brain would almost have to be non material thought. So if enough people named something in the room after there were no brain waves i would almost be all the way abroad.

Remski, first of all, your location made me laugh.

Second, I have no clue whether other animals experience anything like this when they die, I would guess probably not, but who knows?

In terms of there being an end, again, I do not know. From what I have come to believe it probably does go on forever, or for a very long time until you are given another chance to come back, as in the Buddhist wheel of life. In terms of precisely what it is you experience for all that time, I couldn't say. I got the impression the place I went to was an "in-between" place that you don't stay at for long, but as to what comes next, time will only tell...

Big questions I don't really have the answers for I'm afraid :-(


H

Hainesy, if u have some time to indulge my curiosity i'm interested in your take.

ok, i know this is going on a tangent although im sure the participants of the thread won't mind. I notice how chris langan has contemplated some of these issues of afterlife/redemption without an ounce (from my perspective) of religiosity.

From my readings of your posts, I have noticed you don't seem religious yet do seem to have an open perspective on spirituality.

Just an informal post to ask for your opinion and thoughts on this particular piece... cheers mate, have a good one.

link to chris langan website - http://www.ctmu.org/

One does not "see" the external world without eyes. This is a given. Placing objects about the room only to be seen from above implies that the physical eyes somehow have to be not only moved but recreated above the room. This is a materialist bent suffused in an illusion of its own importance and a comprehension which is nullity.

For those who claim some such type of spirituality the "soul" does not see the external world unless it is through the eyes. No eyes, no sight, then one is called "blind" ala Bartimeaus. The healing has to mean something, no?

The above in no way obviates or denies near death experiences. Characterizing them rather than trying to find reasons for them within ones present knowledge would seem to be more fruitful.

I'd love to hear the answers to these questions.

Well, in fairness H's account sort of fits that bill.

Hell, sure. But never religions which they were not formally acquainted with. I.E. If you have never heard about Hinduism in your life or seen or heard or read anything related to it you will not have a NDE or OBE related to it. Same goes for all religions. Same goes for dreams. It's explained in Humes enquiries the best imo.

And your source for this is?

Plenty of NDEs are horrendous enough to make mine look quite fun. I remember reading an interview with Lenny Kravitz about his conversion from international playboy to stoic born-again Christian (I know) and he was motivated by his father who was a womanising partyman much like Lenny had been, and on his deathbed he was tormented by visions of black insects crawling over his hotel room and shadowy figures moving outside the door, neither of which were visible to Lenny at that time. His father was basically bricking it because as far as he was concerned a very dark and scary afterlife was starting to converge with reality.

I was never a believer in anything spiritual until I had my NDE, and it did not fit with any of the major religions views on anything, or any of my particular preconceptions about anything, it just happened, which made it all the more impacting.



Hnzy (no longer wishes to be known as H, as the only ppl I've ever come across called H were t*ssers)