every single line in the Bible that is not "interpreted" as exactly what it says at face value is an example of exactly what I'm talking about. The only reason we are having this conversation is because you claimed that Muslims shouldn't interpret words in the Qu'ran as anything other than exactly what they say and command. I'm pointing out that if you can do this with Christianity, then you really can't criticize Muslims for doing the same exact thing. Particularly when it comes to something extreme, like commanding that Muslims commit murder, or when the Bible commands that adulterers or homosexuals be stoned to death.

thank you this is what I was trying to say also

No, we are IMO having a conversation because I make a distinction between commands that can be interpreted otherwise, and commands that can not be interpreted otherwise.

Bible: 7 days can mean allegorical 7 periods, 7 seconds.
Bible: A 'command' like give all your possessions to the poor can be taken at face value and mean exactly what it says, but you can read the context around it and see, oh no, it actually means that you shouldn't value your money and wealth so high etc. - resulting in the belief that being wealthy is not a sin, but taking pride for your wealth is (quote of St. John Chrysostomos)
In fact, Christ spoke so much in parabolas, that taking everything just at 'face value' is so obviously wrong.

Quran: Murder can mean.... well I don't know anything else than just murder actually. If you look into context, it's still murder.
Muslims are really free to interpret this as they like, but how is it possible to interpret this in a peaceful way?
When Muslims can interpret something allegorical, they have every freedom to do so, but if it's impossible, it's impossible.

Do you agree with this distinction or not?


Also, on a side note; yes the OT commended that adulterers and homosexuals should be stoned to death. but you should analyse Christianity by the NT, as that is the New Covenant. All the previous laws are fulfilled and we now have to follow the 'laws' of the NT.


But please, just pick one verse and let's discuss it (if you like anyway, i don't think it's really necessary, and I think you'll agree...)

No, it's arbitrary and serves only so you can justify your anti-Islam stance.

So you're saying that Judaism is also a bad religion, as evil as Islam?

no, i absolutely positively face slappingly disagree with this distinction, and it is one you are making solely so you can claim moral superiority over Islam, and it is completely 100% my point.

You can interpret verses in your holy book at face value, or you can alter the meaning based on context and translation errors or whatever, or you can just flat ignore stuff you don't like, like the entire OT. If the OT is to be ignored, then it shouldn't be in the Bible at all. Plenty of Christians follow teachings from the OT, while plenty of others do not. Another example of just picking and choosing what to follow. And you'll say "but they aren't supposed to follow the OT", and i'll reply "exactly." That just further illustrates my point. And I think Christianity would be an entirely different religion if the OT was never a part of the Bible. At least, nearly half of the Christians in America would be leading completely different lives with completely different morals right now.

So why are Muslims not allowed to? Why can Christians read a passage out of the Bible and interpret it as meaning something other than exactly word for word what it says at face value, based on context or dual meanings of words, but Muslims aren't allowed to do the same exact thing with the Qu'ran?

for example, since you brought it up for some reason, which actually works in my favor as it is a perfect example of what I mean, the 7 day thing. Why is it that in the Bible, a "day" can mean a day, a second, an hour, or some other period of time, any period of time at all actually, that isn't a day? If you can do this with the word day, or change the word slave to "well paid and well fed, well pampered butlers", or change the meaning of hell to "a garbage dump outside Jerusalem", why can't Muslims do the same with words out of their holy book?

I'm actually just going to tell you why, it's so you can claim religious and moral superiority over Islam by forcing Islam to be something it is not, rather than just accepting that it is the exact same thing as Christianity (and pretty much every other religion) in practically every way. Some good, some bad. Some people use it to better lives, some people use it as justification to do bad things.

The Torah has different monetary rules for non Jews that are no longer followed. It has commands to kill people for certain crimes that are no longer followed. It has a whole bunch of things that are no longer followed. So i was wondering do you have the same difficulty's with the Jewish people who dont follow the Torah's commands as you do with Muslim who dont follow the Quran's? And do you have the same criticisms of their book for being brutal?


Edit: nevermind ganstaman asked basically the same thing.

Maybe it's arbitrary. But let's follow my 3 examples.
Example 1. False?
Example 2. False?
Example 3. False?

Yes I have an anti-Islam stance. Do you think, as a Christian, or as a humanist, I should be having a pro-Islam stance? (Yes I know this is a false dichotomy, there is a possibility of not having a stance, or a 'neutral' stance). But a neutral stance could also result in anti-Islam or pro-Islam

I am anti-Islam because it is false, if Islam were true, I would be pro-Islam


True Judaism = True Christianity.
But the Judaism you know today, and the Judaism you are referring to, is a bad religion, yes, as it is anti-Christ, just like Islam. I don't really want to judge on 'evilness' as there is no objective way of knowing how evil a 'religion is'. But they're both false.

The OT is of course NOT to be ignored. That is not what I said at all. There are many prophecies in the OT. There is a lot of you can learn of the OT. There are the Psalms of David. Of course I'm not saying it should be ignored. I'm saying Christ came to fulfil the laws; meaning, we now know what those laws were intended for, and how people should actually be living. And I'm not just picking and choosing the NT over the OT, Christ our God himself mentioned it, that he came, not to abolish the law but to fulfil it, disagreeing with the Pharisees for example about the Sabbath.

Muslims ARE allowed to! I'm just wondering HOW they could do that? How can you interpret the Jizya differently? Tell me? Try Please. Muslims can interpret everything how they want and what they want of course!!! I'm not denying that.

God gave an example on how HE did something. This is over the top for any human to conceive. This is the territory of the divine, of the creation. He gave a message to Moses about something so infinite, that it can not be explained perfectly to a finite being; the human.
In the Quran, Allah gives commands to the Muslims. They are to kill their enemies in some situations. They are to fast in the Ramadan etc etc. This is the territory of the human, this can be conceived by the humans, as it are direct commands intended for the followers to follow.

Be my guest to change the meaning of slave or of hell, be my guest. Muslims are my guest too. Some are already doing it... there is no problem, they should do whatever they want. I've visited another forum where a defender of Islam stated that when Muhammed consummated his marriage with Aisha, consummated simply meant that they going to live together.

They are absolutely free to interpret Allah's word however they want. Is it believable? No (imo). But then again, I acknowledge that you don't think it's believable either that a day can mean something else than 24 hours.

I'm not forcing Islam to be something it is not. I'm analysing the English translation of the Quran and stating if it is moral or immoral. Of course I know you don't agree with my analysis.

And about the thing that some people use it with good results, and some with bad results. That's not the point. It is about the inherent morality in the religion's holy books. Not about the people that follow it.

My fake bible verse was meant to mess with the person it was posted too, just so you all know.

The fact that they had to look it up and google to see if it really was a bible verse confirmed my beliefs about their lack of knowledge.

No, I am not a level, nor am I a troll....

Anyone who really knew the bible would EASILY be able to tell if that verse was real or not.

Gigs up Pletho.

All Muslims are clearly connected to terrorism imo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10905070

Another analogy for this whole mosque thing - it's like opening an Irish bar two blocks away from a site the IRA bombed once.

Who cares if you believe me or not? I don't.

People on this forum have been trying to figure me out for a long time, all the while I have told them to their face the truth, at times though I have had to play along with their crazy notions of me being something other than what I truly am, which is a bible believing Christian.

These times I have played and toyed with the atheists and the others who at times needed some play, have confused them and you even more.

So, I stand by my word, I am the real deal, and there is no Gid to be up.

I have lately been ignoring most all the retarted threads that are here and are started by you all, waiting for the right time and appropriate thread to hop on. But there never really seems to be a ligit thread or really appropriate thread, so I hop on and say a few things, just so you all know I am still here.....

Original Position knows as much about the bible than pretty much anyone one this forum, theist or atheist. Double-checking before calling someone a liar is nothing to look down upon, nor is it proof that person lacks knowledge.

Well, at least you get the point.

As for gig's up, read my other post.

As for all Muslims connected to terrorism, I do not believe that.

But if you have ever seen the movie "The Matrix", you will remember that all the people in the matrix were living portals for the evil Mr. Smith to come into and control and leave at will, and while he was there within them they were not in control and he could do as he willed with their body.

That is more close to the truth than you or any main stream Christian understands.

You posted your fake bible verse to me, so presumably I was the one you were 'messing with'. Thanks for that. Your approach makes it very clear that, whatever it is you do follow, it isnt the word of God.

Would it be distasteful to build a 200 foot statue of Keanu Reeves at Ground Zero? Mr. Smith won't dare take over any Muslims in the vicinity.

So, it turns out people are listening to fox news way too ****ing much. Fox news keeps pushing the 9/11 groundbreaking and opening date, however no date is planned as of yet.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201007200004

In before Fox reports that the owners "caved to public pressure" and pushed back the opening date.

I think you should be more careful...after all Ephaticus 2:15 says, "Don't test with the Word of God, for it is perfect and Holy, and you will cause people's heads to explode."

Revelations 22:18
“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."

So if you start breaking out in sores, you know why.

As you should know by now, the book Ephasticus, is not in the bible, so if I decide to add to or subtract from the book of Ephaticus, I am not messing with the actual bible, the word of God, not even close.

That does make sense and does sound logical to you doesn't it?

Pletho is pwning you all.

I blasphemed the holy spirit a few days ago, but I did it ironically. I'm all good, right?

My emphasis, your statement.

Really? You approve of:

"I don't think this guy knows the bible well, so I'll 'mess with him' and make up a passage from a fictitious book to see if he calls me on it without citing google. That will make it clear that he knows as little as I think he does."

If he's genuinely a believer, Pletho has lost sight of what it means to testify in my opinion - he's so caught up in being some kind of prophet he's forgotten that his role is incidental. What matters is helping people accept God, not testing them with ridiculous fabrications to salve his own ego.

That interpretation is taking the dubious position that his motivation was indeed what he said it was. I struggle to believe it, but am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

For being a bunch of God rejecting, non-believing atheists, you guys sure are uptight and seem to be getting pretty religious with me about this subject.

Maybe you all should take a chill pill or lighten up a bit.

Believe it or not Christians DO have a sense of humor, and can exercise it.....

Maybe you do not think its funny that I am messing around with something that you think and believe that I should be getting bent out of shape about?

I have done nothing that is really so bad on here but mess with people who do not believe in the bible in the first place.

Jesus Christ did it all the time, but he was much, much more frank and straight forward than me, he called things the way they were.

I have not done that, I have held back in my opinion lots towards you guys.

Bunny, am I supposed to witness to rocks that have no ears to hear and no eyes to see?

Come on, you think that is logical.