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Old 10-08-2018, 03:57 AM   #26
Do0rDoNot
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
This is not proof that god exists.
Is it within the realm of logical possibilities that God exists and that there is no possible proof of his existence?

If not, why not? If so, why keep demanding for proof as if it's some requirement?
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:39 AM   #27
neeeel
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
Is it within the realm of logical possibilities that God exists and that there is no possible proof of his existence?

If not, why not? If so, why keep demanding for proof as if it's some requirement?
First, I didnt demand proof. I pointed out that his statements were not proof of god.

God being within the realm of logical possibilities, is not a justification for a belief in god. It seems like you are saying, well its possibly true, therefore my belief is valid.

Proof IS a requirement when you make statements and expect someone to accept your position as valid. especially when you use the word "proof" in your statements.

If there is no possible proof of his existence, that is essentially the same as him not existing. I mean, if god is undetectable, has no detectable effect on the universe, then he doesnt exist in any meaningful way, since no events can be attributed to him, and reality is the same with or without the belief in god.( i feel like I havent articulated this very well, not sure how else to put it)
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:16 AM   #28
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
First, I didnt demand proof. I pointed out that his statements were not proof of god.

God being within the realm of logical possibilities, is not a justification for a belief in god. It seems like you are saying, well its possibly true, therefore my belief is valid.

Proof IS a requirement when you make statements and expect someone to accept your position as valid. especially when you use the word "proof" in your statements.

If there is no possible proof of his existence, that is essentially the same as him not existing. I mean, if god is undetectable, has no detectable effect on the universe, then he doesnt exist in any meaningful way, since no events can be attributed to him, and reality is the same with or without the belief in god.( i feel like I havent articulated this very well, not sure how else to put it)
It is the classical empiricist position. If there is no observable evidence, then there is no evidence. If there is no observable evidence, nothing supports the claim.

Evidence is also a better word in this context than proof. It's splitting hairs since proof and evidence is used interchangeably in everyday context. Formally speaking however, proof for shows that A is true, while evidence for A supports A.

It should be noted that a person saying "I just know God exists!" is evidence of God, but it wouldn't be acceptable empirical evidence. But these kinds of argument for God (from the fluffy hippie kind down to the cosmological argument) are typically rationalist positions and void the need for observable evidence, maintaining instead that you can deduce that God exists from thought alone.

There is a middle-ground position though. The "indirect" god, or perhaps we could name it the "dark matter" of theology. Maintaining that perhaps you can't know exactly what God is, but that he can be deduced by looking at the universe. Personally I think these range from bad (intelligent design) to quite clever (simulation theory or deism). Liberal variants of revealed religions might hold that these religions are inspired by divine events rather than exactly describing God.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:47 PM   #29
Do0rDoNot
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
First, I didnt demand proof. I pointed out that his statements were not proof of god.

God being within the realm of logical possibilities, is not a justification for a belief in god. It seems like you are saying, well its possibly true, therefore my belief is valid.
Huh? You're implying here that without evidence no belief is valid.

Quote:
Proof IS a requirement when you make statements and expect someone to accept your position as valid. especially when you use the word "proof" in your statements.
It is? When someone expresses their emotions to you, do you discount their position because they offer no proof that their emotions are genuine? Is what someone is feeling invalid because there is no proof that their claim is true? I hear people say crap like this all the time, but it goes directly against pretty much the entirety of human interaction.

What you're really doing is establishing a standard that is actually impossible to meet, imposing that standard upon people you disagree with, and then judging their position based on their inability to reach your standard. It's the oldest atheist trick in the book. Disingenuous, unfair, and unwarranted, not to mention basically a strawman intended to shut down discourse.

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If there is no possible proof of his existence, that is essentially the same as him not existing.
Nonsense.

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I mean, if god is undetectable, has no detectable effect on the universe, then he doesnt exist in any meaningful way, since no events can be attributed to him, and reality is the same with or without the belief in god.( i feel like I havent articulated this very well, not sure how else to put it)
Of course one possible alternative is that God exists, he is just missing from your life.

A truly free thinker or open mind would look at genuine expression of a lived reality that billions of people on earth express as something that shouldn't just be tossed out the window with arrogant dismissal.
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:36 AM   #30
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
Huh? You're implying here that without evidence no belief is valid.
Not sure what you mean by valid here, but yes, beliefs should be supported by logical, factual evidence, in order to have the best possible picture of reality.



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It is? When someone expresses their emotions to you, do you discount their position because they offer no proof that their emotions are genuine? Is what someone is feeling invalid because there is no proof that their claim is true? I hear people say crap like this all the time, but it goes directly against pretty much the entirety of human interaction.
So you are equating feelings with facts? Im not sure where you are going with this, but the statement "God exists" is different from the statement "I feel like god exists".

If someone expresses to me "I am feeling X", I dont need to automatically believe them. The statement alone can be evidence that they are in fact feeling X, but I will also take into account their actions and trustworthyness. If they express that they love someone, and then go on to treat that person ****tily, I can start to question whether they do in fact feel love.

I find how you are trying equate questioning someones statements to invalidating and gaslighting them, very dishonest.



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What you're really doing is establishing a standard that is actually impossible to meet, imposing that standard upon people you disagree with, and then judging their position based on their inability to reach your standard. It's the oldest atheist trick in the book. Disingenuous, unfair, and unwarranted, not to mention basically a strawman intended to shut down discourse.
Let me get this right, asking someone for evidence of their beliefs is disingenuous, unfair, unwarranted, and designed to shut down discourse?



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Nonsense.
Not at all. If he has no detectable effect on the universe, its equivalent to not existing. Note this doesnt mean that he doesnt exist, I suppose he may exist in some unreachable dimension.

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Of course one possible alternative is that God exists, he is just missing from your life.
You said

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Is it within the realm of logical possibilities that God exists and that there is no possible proof of his existence?
note, you said "no POSSIBLE proof", I took that to mean, that there is no way to determine whether he exists. If you have a way to determine that he exists, please feel free to share ( this is also whats known as evidence, or proof). If your method of determining that he exists, is illogical or not based on reality or contains flawed reasoning, I am perfectly entitled to point that out, or not accept your statement as true.

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A truly free thinker or open mind would look at genuine expression of a lived reality that billions of people on earth express as something that shouldn't just be tossed out the window with arrogant dismissal.
Asking for proof is arrogant dismissal?
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:04 AM   #31
Do0rDoNot
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
Not sure what you mean by valid here, but yes, beliefs should be supported by logical, factual evidence, in order to have the best possible picture of reality.
Why? In reality, no beliefs are supported beyond a certain point.




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So you are equating feelings with facts? Im not sure where you are going with this, but the statement "God exists" is different from the statement "I feel like god exists".
No, I'm illustrating that someones subjective experience of reality may be different from yours, but just that fact doesn't make it less 'valid.' Some people experience God. You may not. When you claim others' experiences aren't correct or valid because you aren't sufficiently convinced of them, or you don't experience them, or that they don't mean some arbitrary evidentiary standard you pulled out of your ass due to some limited understanding of the scientific method, you come off as an arrogant idiot.







Quote:
Let me get this right, asking someone for evidence of their beliefs is disingenuous, unfair, unwarranted, and designed to shut down discourse?
No, setting up an evidentiary standard for something that it might not be possible to provide empirical evidence for, which is also not required for valid human experience, and then judging someones position based on that standard is those things.





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Not at all. If he has no detectable effect on the universe, its equivalent to not existing. Note this doesnt mean that he doesnt exist, I suppose he may exist in some unreachable dimension.
For you it doesn't. I've met people who were deeply transformed when they 'met God.' I'm not as arrogant a sonofabitch as to claim I have access to why they transformed. You can conjecture all you want here, which I suspect you will; you'd be missing the point again.



Quote:
note, you said "no POSSIBLE proof", I took that to mean, that there is no way to determine whether he exists.
Via your silly, limited evidentiary standard that you pulled out of your ass, correct. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist. In fact, why would you expect that God would want to be clear and available to your senses in the first place? Because everything else is (everything else isn't, btw)? Lol. Think outside your little box man, cmon.

A lot of you 'evidentiary atheists' have a deeply narrowminded view of reality, all the while carrying a hubris of understanding you don't actually possess.

Last edited by Do0rDoNot; 10-11-2018 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:57 PM   #32
neeeel
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
No, I'm illustrating that someones subjective experience of reality may be different from yours, but just that fact doesn't make it less 'valid.' Some people experience God. You may not. When you claim others' experiences aren't correct or valid because you aren't sufficiently convinced of them, or you don't experience them, or that they don't mean some arbitrary evidentiary standard you pulled out of your ass due to some limited understanding of the scientific method, you come off as an arrogant idiot.

subjective experience !=fact. the fact that different people can have different subjective experiences, does not mean that facts are not facts, or that you can believe whatever you want. I mean, you CAN believe whatever you want, but I can dismiss your beliefs as irrational or illogical if they arent supported by evidence. I realise that you are likely going to claim that subjective experience of god is evidence of god, and it might be for the person who has the subjective experience. I do not have to accept your belief as true, just because you had a subjective experience.




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No, setting up an evidentiary standard for something that it might not be possible to provide empirical evidence for, which is also not required for valid human experience, and then judging someones position based on that standard is those things.
If its not possible to provide empirical evidence, then I can dismiss your belief as irrational or illogical. Why should I believe in something there is (little or) no evidence for?




Quote:
For you it doesn't. I've met people who were deeply transformed when they 'met God.' I'm not as arrogant a sonofabitch as to claim I have access to why they transformed. You can conjecture all you want here, which I suspect you will; you'd be missing the point again.
Im not claiming anything here, other than that I dont have to believe in god, or even accept their belief as valid, just because they had an experience.




Quote:
Via your silly, limited evidentiary standard that you pulled out of your ass, correct. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist. In fact, why would you expect that God would want to be clear and available to your senses in the first place? Because everything else is (everything else isn't, btw)? Lol. Think outside your little box man, cmon.

A lot of you 'evidentiary atheists' have a deeply narrowminded view of reality, all the while carrying a hubris of understanding you don't actually possess.
I never said it means god doesnt exist. In fact I stated at least once that it was possible for god to still exist, but for us not to have any evidence.

Its not about what god does or doesnt want. Its about your claims about god, and whether I need to take them seriously or not. If you have no evidence, I dont need to take them seriously.

Why are you getting so abusive and nasty? I havent insulted you, or said anything abusive?
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:39 PM   #33
Do0rDoNot
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
subjective experience !=fact. the fact that different people can have different subjective experiences, does not mean that facts are not facts, or that you can believe whatever you want. I mean, you CAN believe whatever you want, but I can dismiss your beliefs as irrational or illogical if they arent supported by evidence.
What you obviously don't understand, mostly because you're quipping the same mundane talking points all Dawkins readers do, is that EVERY belief is unsupportable at some point. Including your belief that beliefs require evidence.

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I realise that you are likely going to claim that subjective experience of god is evidence of god
I am not claiming that. I simply refuse to play your game with the rules you invent. No belief is ultimately supportable by evidence, including the belief that beliefs require evidence.







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If its not possible to provide empirical evidence, then I can dismiss your belief as irrational or illogical.
Sure you can. Go ahead. That doesn't mean it is irrational though, which you again seem to be missing somehow.

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Why should I believe in something there is (little or) no evidence for?
No one is telling you what you should believe. You are in fact telling others what they shouldn't believe. Amazingly, actually.






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Im not claiming anything here, other than that I dont have to believe in god, or even accept their belief as valid, just because they had an experience.
You don't have to believe anything you don't want to. Belief in God is certainly a choice.






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I never said it means god doesnt exist. In fact I stated at least once that it was possible for god to still exist, but for us not to have any evidence.

Its not about what god does or doesnt want.
No? If God exists in the form most people agree upon then in reality everything is about what He wants.

Quote:
Its about your claims about god, and whether I need to take them seriously or not. If you have no evidence, I dont need to take them seriously.

Why are you getting so abusive and nasty? I havent insulted you, or said anything abusive?
I haven't been abusive or personal in any way. I'm simply making general statements based on my history of interactions with most atheists.
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:34 PM   #34
neeeel
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post

Sure you can. Go ahead. That doesn't mean it is irrational though, which you again seem to be missing somehow.
belief without evidence is, by definition, irrational.



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You don't have to believe anything you don't want to. Belief in God is certainly a choice.
I cant choose to believe in something that there is no evidence for.




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I haven't been abusive or personal in any way. I'm simply making general statements based on my history of interactions with most atheists.

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Via your silly, limited evidentiary standard that you pulled out of your ass
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you come off as an arrogant idiot.
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I'm not as arrogant a sonofabitch
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A lot of you 'evidentiary atheists' have a deeply narrowminded view of reality, all the while carrying a hubris
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I hear people say crap like this all the time
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:05 PM   #35
neeeel
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

what you are saying, is that all beliefs are equal, no beliefs are better than any others, no beliefs are more valid( or invalid) than any others.

but your actions dont bear that out. You favour some beliefs over others.
you are also saying that the belief in god is better than a belief in no god. You are applying a standard, if its not an evidence based standard, then what standard are you applying?

Also, Im pretty sure you dont apply this to other aspects of your life. You dont look out the window, and see its sunny, but you know that all beliefs are without evidence, so you get dressed up in 3 layers of clothing with an umbrella and raincoat. You apply a standard in other aspects of your life, why does this one belief get a different standard?
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:39 PM   #36
Do0rDoNot
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
belief without evidence is, by definition, irrational.
Nonsense. Tell me, where is the evidence that your claim that beliefs require evidence is true? Where is the evidence that that evidence is true? And where is the evidence that that evidence is true?





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I cant choose to believe in something that there is no evidence for.
Yes you can. People do it every day. Faith = trust without evidence

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...
If you took any of that personally you are a highly sensitive person.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:42 PM   #37
Do0rDoNot
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
what you are saying, is that all beliefs are equal, no beliefs are better than any others, no beliefs are more valid( or invalid) than any others.

but your actions dont bear that out. You favour some beliefs over others.
you are also saying that the belief in god is better than a belief in no god. You are applying a standard, if its not an evidence based standard, then what standard are you applying?

Also, Im pretty sure you dont apply this to other aspects of your life. You dont look out the window, and see its sunny, but you know that all beliefs are without evidence, so you get dressed up in 3 layers of clothing with an umbrella and raincoat. You apply a standard in other aspects of your life, why does this one belief get a different standard?
All beliefs are ultimately without evidence
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:24 AM   #38
tame_deuces
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

It is possible to go down a route of ultimate skepticism. Ala "I can't know that what anyone else tells me they experience is actually what they experience or that what they experience actually happened". Of course, you would also have to concede that your own senses are deceiving you when people rely on measurements (a common component of empiricism) to support their assertions. But it's just a very wasteful and needlessly exhausting way of saying "I'm right because I am right".

It's also possible to go down a route of absolute skepticism. "It is not possible to know if something is true". That argument of course defeats itself.

And then of course, there is the simple little fact that people who argue these things do not actually believe in them. The world does operate under certain rules and they are actually possible to know. I challenge anyone who dispute that to hold their hand right over a lit candle for 15 seconds and report back to this forum with their findings.
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:19 PM   #39
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
It's also possible to go down a route of absolute skepticism. "It is not possible to know if something is true". That argument of course defeats itself.
To be truthful to absolute skepticism is to go even further than this, in which your skepticism causes you to transcend your rationalism. Thinking that the argument defeats itself is still within a rationalist belief system, and not absolute skepticism. There is still some hedging taking place in that instance. Absolute skepticism should paralyze you and take you out of your head and into your body.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:41 PM   #40
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
It's also possible to go down a route of absolute skepticism. "It is not possible to know if something is true". That argument of course defeats itself.
To which the sceptic can just accept that it is not possible to know the proposition it is not possible to know if something is true.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:49 PM   #41
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
It is possible to go down a route of ultimate skepticism. Ala "I can't know that what anyone else tells me they experience is actually what they experience or that what they experience actually happened". Of course, you would also have to concede that your own senses are deceiving you when people rely on measurements (a common component of empiricism) to support their assertions. But it's just a very wasteful and needlessly exhausting way of saying "I'm right because I am right".

1) People make measurements
How are those measurements certain?
Because the instruments were calibrated
Why are the calibration techniques valid?
Because we used a ruler
How do you know your ruler is accurate?
Because we lazer measured it
How do you know your lazer is accurate?
Because it was programmed with Pi and convert radians to degrees
How do you know Pi works?

When you dig into what you and neeeell call the scientific method and empiricism it comes down to sloppy human slapping around and assumptions. The religious point of view comes down to the exact same thing. So when someone asks for 'evidence' of God that's about the same thing as me asking for evidence that our number theory or that logic is correct. Give me direct evidence that the law of noncontradiction exists.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:40 PM   #42
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Re: Morality is only an opinion primarily based on emotion

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Originally Posted by dereds View Post
To which the sceptic can just accept that it is not possible to know the proposition it is not possible to know if something is true.
Ah, but then he also has to accept that he can't know that he can't know that it is not possible to know the proposition it is not possible to know if something is true.

And so forth.

What skepticism painted with broad brush strokes find (in my not-so-humble opinion) in this rather exhausting loop is that truth is an instrument of language and information. By claiming truth is not possible (or rather following that or similar statements to their conclusion), we find that language dissolves into gibberish.

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