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03-13-2009 , 05:09 PM

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

A man emerges in some part of the United States and claims to be Jesus. He commands a large following, ultimately leading to a somewhat secluded community of 10,000+ men and women who believe this man to indeed be Jesus. Each one witnessing and attesting to the fact that he can do miracles. He heals the sick, he walks on water, he does everything Jesus does in the bible, as well as other things.

The followers of the returning Jesus write down fervently everything he says and does. And back each others words up. These writings then get published into a volume for anyone to read. Though, for certain reasons, you are not allowed to visit the man or the community himself. The volumes of writings contain his miracles and his preachings of love and salvation, if that matters.

Now then, do you believe this is Jesus or not? And on what grounds do you believe or disbelieve?

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03-13-2009 , 05:28 PM

Our House

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 28,109

This pretty much covers your hypothetical:

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Originally Posted by Sam Harris

I actually remain open to evidence of such powers, but the fact is that people who tell these stories desperately want to believe them. All to my knowledge that's the kind of corroborating evidence we should require before believing that natures laws have been abrogated in this play and people who believe these stories show an uncanny reluctance to look for non miraculous causes. But it remains a fact that Yogis and mystics are said to be walking on water and raising the dead and flying with out the aid of technology, materializing objects, reading minds,foretelling the future, right now. In fact all of these powers have been described to Sathya Sai Baba the south Indian guru by an uncountable number of eye witnesses.

He even claims to been born of a virgin which is not all that uncommon a claim in the history of religion or in history generally Ghengis Khan supposedly was born of a virgin, as was Alexander. Apparently parthenogenesis doesn't guarantee that you are going to turn the other cheek. But Sathya Sai Baba is not a fringe, he is not the David Koresh of Hinduism, his followers threw a birthday party for him recently and a million people showed up, so there are vast numbers of people who believe he is a living God, you can even watch his miracles on You Tube. Prepare to be under whelmed. Maybe its true that he has an afro of sufficient diameter as to suggest a total detachment from the opinions of his fellow human beings but I am not sure this is reason enough to worship him in any case, so consider as though for the first time the foundational claim of Christianity.

The claim is this that miracle stories of a sort that today surround a person like Sathya Sai Baba, become especially compelling when you set them in the pre-scientific religious context of the first century roman empire, decades after they are supposed to the occurrence. We have Sathya Sai Baba's miracle stories attested to by thousands upon thousands of living eye witnesses and they don't even merit an hour on the discovery channel but you place a few miracle stories in some ancient books and half of the people on this earth think it a legitimate project to organize their lives around them. Does anyone else here see a problem with that?

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03-13-2009 , 05:47 PM

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

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Originally Posted by Our House

This pretty much covers your hypothetical:

i know. i actually had sai baba in mind when i wrote this out. but i would like to hear on what grounds a christian could deny one and believe the other.

edit: sam harris is incredibly eloquent on this point.

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03-13-2009 , 05:52 PM

BrokeDonk

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,514

sam harris makes me wet

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03-13-2009 , 07:20 PM

Autocratic

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Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 11,276

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Originally Posted by BrokeDonk

sam harris makes me wet

For serious. All of the other big new atheists make me nod along and whatever, but they rarely put anything as well as Harris.

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03-13-2009 , 09:23 PM

Bulletproof Monk

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Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 22,217

maybe

i mean 10,000 is a lot of people. why would they make that up?

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