So I am a confirmed catholic who has not been to church or practiced religion in 6+ years. The truth is I never believed because it doesn't logically make sense etc. All of my church-going was induced by my parents when I was younger.

Recently I have been talking to god (like he exists) and actually trying to believe. I have felt like it is helping me deal with situations. I just feel a lot less "weight" on my shoulders and I can't explain it.

Flashback: The last time I went to a protestant church (parents are different type of Christians) I vividly remember tearing up during the one religious praise songs. And this was the freakiest thing that has ever happened because I had no reason to do so. I wasn't thinking about anything bad and honestly scared me. I am not a person who cries out of nowhere and I never went back to church after that.

There are two reasons that I might attempt church:

1. Something always comes from something. Which doesn't make sense because If god made everything, who made god? I don't accept that something can ALWAYS have existed. And if earth was made from a scientific perspective, what made that force that made everything?

2. Space. Space has to come to an end or turn into something else because everything ends. But I can ask myself two questions. How can space end? or How can space not end?

These two things can't be explained and leads me to believe that the human mind can not perceive the reality of everything. So If I can't perceive it, who am I to challenge that god isn't real?

I might attempt church tomorrow and see what It has to offer. If anyone in here has turned religious, feel free to share your story because I would be interested about how having faith changed you.

There are a great many negatives that can be posted regarding "going to church". But the positives for me are all the great Praise and Worship songs. Music is a powerful force.

I can't think of anything negative concerning reading the Bible, or any other "spiritual" text, and regularly setting aside time for personal meditation or prayer.

This is very very common, it's part of how religions survive. The belief system is urged on the those too young to be able to make an informed adult decision about what they want to believe.

I consider it a form of child abuse. I'm an Atheist but I have never once told my children that there is no god(s) because I can't know that for certain. I expect the same open mindedness and respect for a child's right to decide for themselves from the churches but of course they just think they're right so they go ahead and fill the kids heads with whatever it is the grown ups believe, to make sure there's a next generation of believers.

I'm trying to teach my children to be open minded and judge everything by what evidence is available. They'll make their own minds up what to believe when they're old enough to do that.

It's brave of you to do this because if there are no gods then you're talking to yourself, worse, you're talking to someone who isn't there. It's not easy to consider that you might be doing that and be so self deluded, better to just close your mind and accept the god, whichever one it is, so kudos to you for being more open minded than that.


May I suggest that instead you try a different belief system? Go to a Mosque, or a Hindu temple. OR if it's particularly important to you that there be a deity or deities involved, Buddhism is an excellent belief system. It's like a religion with all the ugly taken out of them.

It sounds like your reasons for church is not a question of "epistomology", but more something caused by other events in your life.

In that case church can certainly be a comfort. Beware people (or yourself for that matter) who might want to use guilt as part of your attachment to religion, because that can quickly deteriorate your situation... or to use your analogy; "cause more weight" on your shoulders.

As for truth... comfort is not a good criteria for truth. As harsh and brutal as it might sound, it is still true.

You cant perceive leprechauns, who are you to challenge that leprechauns arent real?
You cant perceive the flying spaghetti monster, who are you to challenge that the flying spaghetti monster isnt real

And so on...

so does that mean you will now be believing in leprechauns? I am guessing not.

If you want to believe( and you clearly do) then fine, but at least be clear and honest about your reasons, rather than trying to use scientific sounding proofs.

Also, going from "god is real" to " the god of the catholic church is real" is a huuuuuuuuuuuuge leap of faith

Good for you.

I think Christianity does make sense though. Though it may be hard to get down to an analytical level where we can detect it.

We usually are in a humble state when we pray and after prayer you will probably feel better. A lot of people will say that you're fooling yourself with your emotions. But that's silly. People are emotional and emotions are a component of health. If prayer helps your health in any way then that is a type of proof of it. Of course, there is a life force beyond the prayer and we call it God or Jesus Christ.

Lessons On Prayer
http://adam.mobi/Prayer.htm

I think it's important not to have a scientist vs religion perspective because they're not mutually exclusive. Science describes certain academic subjects but it's also is a way of thinking, it requires a theory and an objective search for evidence to support that theory, so that way of thinking can be applied to religion as easily as anything else. A person with a scientific view always accepts that they could be wrong and that new knowledge might improve their understanding of life.

Anyone who believed, or wanted to believe in one of the gods but accepted the possibility that they may be wrong and was searching for evidence to prove or disprove what they think would be acting scientifically.

Just because we don't understand how things work doesn't mean we need to fill that gap in our knowledge with something like an all powerful creator because it conveniently explains everything. There are people currently working on this problem and hopefully will eventually provide a reasonable answer, as has often happened in the past (remember that once people worshiped the sun because they couldn't explain what it was) and so I'm prepared to wait for those answers.

A God or multiple gods are just one theory for how we came to be here, there are others. At this point no one knows for sure so to commit to one or the other would be close minded and unscientific.

Going to church because it makes you happy/feel better/etc. is your prerogative but trying to justify it with "science cant explain everything therefore a specific flavor of the Christian God" is pretty weak.

Opportunity cost, for one, is a giant negative. I always imagine how much smarter/more cultured/whatever I'd be if my parents didn't waste time sending me to study nonsense and replaced it with something substantive.

Meh. I'm not talking about hours a day. I was thinking more like, "should I watch another episode of Big Bang Theory, or shall I meditate for awhile...."

That kind of thing.

My high school (which was Christian) used to have quire in the chapel after school, and sometimes I'd go sit in the audience and listen while I waited for someone to come pick me up.

I've been an atheist my whole life (my parents were never even able to get me to believe in Santa Claus).

I teared up pretty much every time and I'm not sure why either. But I think it was because of how happy they were and how they had a place in society and they were able to do something beautiful together that they individually could never do on their own, and it was all because they collectively believed something that I knew I could never believe.

Which meant, that something beautiful they were making on stage and that beautiful life they were living, I could definitely never have that.

And at the time I was in a place that tried every day to convince me that was the only road to happiness.

Maybe that's why you teared up.

I would definitely go to that chapel; it has magic singing paper.

I think enough people have spelled it wrong that both are now acceptable

It was intended as a joke (obviously), but it's not "spelled wrong", it's just an archaic/obsolete spelling.

I prefer using Russell's teapot to make this point.

It's very clever isn't it. Whilst people have worshiped in unpleasant circumstances, there's a reason that churches, temples, mosques and cathedrals (etc) aren't small horrible pokey places. They're designed to invoke a sense of awe which is a perfect psychological state in which to then reinforce a spiritual belief.

As an outsider, it looks wonderful and we mostly all feel the need to be part of something, it's genetic, we've evolved that way for the survival benefit it affords.

It's not hard to understand the attraction of religions. I just see it ultimately as a weakness that holds us back as a species. We're too busy talking to and fighting over our imaginary friends to get out there and realise our potential.

I think the reason you teared up in church is the prescence of the Holy Spirit working on you. I have been there many times.

God wants to soften your heart and move you toward a relationship with him. It is a spiritual process that takes place "in your heart" that is hard to explain with words. It is similar I guess to falling in love with a person but different.

Its funny you brought up the space question. I was discussing this with my wife just this past weekend. We were talking about whether or not space is endless and how crazy that is. IMHO space being unending is a revelation of God's eternal nature. God gave us a physical way of "seeing" how eternity exists and how God in fact is uncreated and eternal.

Let us know how your church experience goes.

Good on you first off. I recently started reading the bible ( for the first time completely and i'm nearly through to the new testament, like others mentioned i wont stop reading here) and suggest you do the same, I've learnt a lot and also learnt a lot about how the bible is not all fact(despite some believing it is), the biggest struggle I have had is in this respect like most atheists I like SOLID evidence and facts , fact is the bible is collated from so many sources and translated so many times over such a long time frame mistakes happen, possibly even intentionally. I've found huge weight off my shoulders similar to you from praying and have felt "the holy spirit" numerous times (not always in worship or in large chapels like others suggest). As others say nothing bad can come from what your doing, I think the biggest reason most atheist people have a problem with religion is the extremists or in your face religious fanatics, everyone is entitled to their view but force feeding it down your throat isn't the way to show it. unlike other religious people I don't believe in creationism. If you ever want to talk feel free to PM me.

I definitely agree.

They're beautiful grand places, and all the costumes are exciting and fun, and there's a lot of good to be said about the communities they build together.

But it's only a weakness holding back the species because it's based on ignorance.

Why can't there be a church for rational people? We could all get together and worship the cosmos. I think people would be even more excited for that, knowing that the uncertainty and infinite wonder of the universe is a real, actual thing that exists.

I guess the trouble with that is coming up with a scientific (objective) code of morality. And maybe also with making the universe seem objectively beautiful, when it's filled with so much chaos and brutality.

I picture a big colorful stained-glass cathedral with a big telescope popping out the top.

Or maybe it's the glue holding together everything. Maybe it is an essential, historically foundational component.

It's fun to just assert stuff, isn't it?

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

False dichotomy. There is no conflict between "holding back the species" and being "an essential component".

So, what you are saying, is that it is the glue the holds the whole shebang together, but still, it holds back the species?

Zing.

I think you will find, if you carefully flip back through our lengthy 2-post conversation, that it was in fact you who said this.

Indeed.

If you look very carefully, you will see that you didn't get it.

Edit: Look at your first response. Then look at your latest.

Hook, line, and sinker.

Does being an ass come naturally, or do you have to work at it?

Your "hook" is a false dichotomy, your "line" is misquoting and your "sinker" is stating I didn't get it?

I have to admit, it is difficult to respond. I'm not ready to blame this on your superior argumentative skills just yet however.