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Old 07-08-2017, 04:48 PM   #126
ToothSayer
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you are at least a non-believer (I put it that way in case you take the philosophical atheist definition, as I do, that an atheist takes the 'believe not' over the 'not believe' stance). It sounds as if you think there is a moral chasm between 'not believing' and 'believing not', so rather than sending this thread down the abortion debate rabbit hole, perhaps you could explain that particular part.
I'm a hardened atheist. I just think most views and criticism of religion, especially as a social force, are simply wrong. I believe the words of Jesus were the core civilizing force of the West, which has achieved an Enlightenment that's remarkable and not at all inevitable, although it may seem that way to us born into it and indoctrinated in its tenets.

Atheism enables horrific evils like Communism, Nazism, eugenics, and so on. The view of a person without a soul, in the hands of many people, is a very negative thing for human dignity. The view of humans as the ultimate arbiters and dispensers of justice and the right to live, is a very negative thing in the hands of many people.

I didn't always believe this. But when you think about and trace what has led to various atrocities and human indignities, atheism is high on the list (Islam is also high on the list, but that's another topic).
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:01 PM   #127
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Hundreds of millions of people disagree with your perspective, maybe,
just maybe you are misguided?
Just about everyone on planet earth once believed the earth was flat and the sun orbited the earth. They were wrong. Large numbers of people of agreeing or disagreeing isn't as impressive as you think it is.
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:06 PM   #128
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Certainly, there has been an impact on particular subpopulations, but my suspicion is that the overall influence is significantly lower (at least in the US).
Small sample size, but I know at least 3 people (one who was deeply religious) who became non believers after reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

Once you become a non believer, there's no turning back. I know there are some like Kirk Cameron who claimed to have been atheists at some point who have found god, but that just means they were probably atheists for the wrong reasons in the first place.
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:43 PM   #129
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
I'm a hardened atheist. I just think most views and criticism of religion, especially as a social force, are simply wrong. I believe the words of Jesus were the core civilizing force of the West, which has achieved an Enlightenment that's remarkable and not at all inevitable, although it may seem that way to us born into it and indoctrinated in its tenets.
So firstly it sounds like you're talking about anti-theists, rather than atheists. There's also a pro-Christian bias, obviously - just because it's an obvious question, did you grow up within Christianity?

I'm not very strong on world history but if Jesus was necessary for Western civilisation, why do you think it took, what, 17 or 18 centuries to actually get there?

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Atheism enables horrific evils like Communism, Nazism, eugenics, and so on. The view of a person without a soul, in the hands of many people, is a very negative thing for human dignity. The view of humans as the ultimate arbiters and dispensers of justice and the right to live, is a very negative thing in the hands of many people.

I didn't always believe this. But when you think about and trace what has led to various atrocities and human indignities, atheism is high on the list (Islam is also high on the list, but that's another topic).
You've piqued my interest, because I don't think you could draw a causal line between atheism and anything else, beyond someone's position on the existence of a god. But one could easily draw a line between the Abrahamic religions and the promotion of suffering, the worthlessness of humans, division of people including from their own family, and so on.

I'd be fascinated to hear how you trace atheism to any 'horrific evil', 'atrocity' or 'human indignity', and you can choose which.
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:45 AM   #130
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Hundreds of millions of people disagree with your perspective, maybe,
just maybe you are misguided?
So if all those hundreds of millions of people decide to jump of a mountain, I guess you will follow, because hey they're all doing it right!
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Old 07-10-2017, 01:06 AM   #131
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Go skiing and hurl yourself down a steep mountain. While doing so attempt to have critical thoughts about your upcoming taxes, your review of the latest movie you watched, and what you will have for dinner later that night.

What you will find is that you will not only very willfully suspend critical thought, but that you will will also find a newfound faith and trust in something beyond your mind to get you down this mountain in 1 piece. That is God, you can only really experience it. It's an energy that flows through your body, but where will that energy go when you die? It's not your energy, it doesn't belong to you as a possession, it simply flows through you and you're a vessel or container for it...who does it belong to though? Some would call it God, it's not required that you do, no name is necessary...however the experience of such is very real.
So what about those people that don't make it down in one piece? Those people that break their neck, was God having a bad day or something, he decided the force shall not be with them?

You talk about the energy and BS, that's adrenaline from the experience to get you through a difficult task. Once you become an expert skier, I'm pretty confident you can do all those things you mentioned and probably receive a blowjob from your favorite woman, all in your head of course! The thing is you can control that energy much better with experience, God has nothing to do with it.

My point is this once you master a certain uncertainty you become more familiar with the action, you want to make it out to be something special in which God helps you magically.

On that note he must help everyone who goes skydiving for the first time or rollercoaster rides, diving, bungee jumping, climbing, the list is endless man. But the fact remains that if we keep doing these same activities our mind and body get used to the action and we can cope and adjust a lot better.

There's no point bringing up God as your savior to get you through tough times, frankly if God really existed you wouldn't of been in that tough position to begin with! Unless of course God is sadist, which I could get on board with btw. In fact that's the most logical explanation that God is actually a Demon, only acting like a God but his true colors are hard to hide, hence we live in such a disgusting world!
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Old 07-10-2017, 01:12 AM   #132
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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"We do know how complex life evolved from relatively simple beginnings"

Um, no we don't. Not even close.

And, throwing out the "where did the creator come from? Adds nothing to the discussion, as the brilliant Christian philosopher William Lane Craig has aptly pointed out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U7Zwju9vAM

[ 8:00 mark ]
Brilliant and William Lane Craig, ok mate
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:04 AM   #133
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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I'm a hardened atheist. I just think most views and criticism of religion, especially as a social force, are simply wrong. I believe the words of Jesus were the core civilizing force of the West, which has achieved an Enlightenment that's remarkable and not at all inevitable, although it may seem that way to us born into it and indoctrinated in its tenets.

Atheism enables horrific evils like Communism, Nazism, eugenics, and so on. The view of a person without a soul, in the hands of many people, is a very negative thing for human dignity. The view of humans as the ultimate arbiters and dispensers of justice and the right to live, is a very negative thing in the hands of many people.

I didn't always believe this. But when you think about and trace what has led to various atrocities and human indignities, atheism is high on the list (Islam is also high on the list, but that's another topic).
How can you be an Atheist but then turn around and believe Jesus blah blah words for enlightenment blah. Unless Jesus is not the Son of God according to you! Well then you have made up another story from the past!
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:10 AM   #134
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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How many atheists are there who support baby rights?

If you apply logical and moral principles consistently, abortion is a horrific thing. And it's the fault of the callousness and mentalism of atheism, which sees humans that can feel and think but not talk or demonstrate reason, as merely nuisances to be murdered, so that a woman can have her bad decision and/or bad forward planning reversed (in most cases - rape, disease are exceptions and also a fraction of abortion decisions).
Erm lots.
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Old 07-10-2017, 03:35 PM   #135
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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How can you be an Atheist but then turn around and believe Jesus blah blah words for enlightenment blah. Unless Jesus is not the Son of God according to you! Well then you have made up another story from the past!
Like Tomas Jefferson did when he created his miracle-less version of the bible (aka Jefferson Bible). It's cherry-picking supreme, but presumably intended to show the best aspects of Jesus as an example of ethics.
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:24 PM   #136
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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No its a good example. Showing that some were for it does not change some were against it because of their God. Do you mind when they legislate and support your views politically, like not having slaves? Would you have spoken out against the abolitionist?
Of course not. Being against slavery is the correct moral position. It certainly is not exclusive to religious folks. I'm an atheist and strongly anti-slavery.

But that doesn't change the fact that many did use the bible to sanction slavery back in those days. If you deny this, you are wrong.
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:26 PM   #137
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Are you also vehemently against anti-discrimination laws?

Ultimately most laws not essential for the basic existence of society are an attempt to force a particular worldview on the entire population.
No, I'm talking more about the people (like Pence) who would legislate religious mores that are sacred to them but perhaps not to secular people. But I think you know that and you're just trolling.
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Old 07-12-2017, 02:06 AM   #138
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Of course not. Being against slavery is the correct moral position. It certainly is not exclusive to religious folks. I'm an atheist and strongly anti-slavery.

But that doesn't change the fact that many did use the bible to sanction slavery back in those days. If you deny this, you are wrong.
Why would i deny something i already know but has nothing to do with my point.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:15 AM   #139
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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But that doesn't change the fact that many did use the bible to sanction slavery back in those days. If you deny this, you are wrong.
Soviet used the "superiority of atheism" as an excuse to execute 100,000 priests, monks and nuns..
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Old 07-12-2017, 06:24 AM   #140
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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Soviet used the "superiority of atheism" as an excuse to execute 100,000 priests, monks and nuns..
And where in the great book of atheists is it written down that "we" decided it was moral to do so and that we agreed upon that?
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:02 AM   #141
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

Putin encourages catholicism, btw. What does this have to do with anything? Absolutely nothing. Irrelevancies are sweeter when shared.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:03 AM   #142
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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And where in the great book of atheists is it written down that "we" decided it was moral to do so and that we agreed upon that?
What does it matter if it was written in a book or not?
Even if it was not written down in a book, somehow atheists decided that the right thing to do was to execute 100,000 priest, monks and nuns to make the state atheistic.

And those 100,000 priests, monks and nuns were just the tip of the iceberg.
"The total number of christian victims under the atheistic Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million"
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:05 AM   #143
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

Never mind the crusades, I guess. Not irrelevant enough?
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:07 AM   #144
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

The Soviet Union was not an atheist church. The Soviet Union was a socialist church that enforced atheism.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:53 AM   #145
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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No, I'm talking more about the people (like Pence) who would legislate religious mores that are sacred to them but perhaps not to secular people. But I think you know that and you're just trolling.
I'm not trolling at all. I contend that you've not throught this through. Atheist mores are just as offensive (and intrusive when legislated) as religious ones. You just identify so strongly with atheist mores that you see nothing wrong with them.

All non-essential legislation forces behavior on people which is nothing more than the current fashion. Take discrimination against gays. Religious people are forced to interact with them even though it's an abomination to them, and they don't want to. Go back 50 years, and gay people were forcibly treated for their own good by atheist psychology which called it a mental illness. Fast forward 50 years. Which of your mores will be disgusting to future generations?

The point is that someone is always forcing mores that are sacred to them onto other people via legislation. Whether they come from an atheist worldview or religion makes little difference.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:00 AM   #146
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

Abomination. Nice.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:09 AM   #147
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

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What does it matter if it was written in a book or not?
Even if it was not written down in a book, somehow atheists decided that the right thing to do was to execute 100,000 priest, monks and nuns to make the state atheistic.

And those 100,000 priests, monks and nuns were just the tip of the iceberg.
"The total number of christian victims under the atheistic Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million"
There are always reasons a crazy person can use to justify their actions, no matter what they are.

The bible or koran is the word of god (lol) and if you believe this is true then you agree with all the others. If the book says it's fine to keep slaves then you agree with it; if you didn't then you would denounce your religion because it is terrible. Of course religious people cherry pick and say "well god didn't mean it that way" (who are they to question god) but that's another matter.

Atheists don't have their ethics codes written down in a book that they all agree with. They just reject all proposed forms of god and that's the only thing they have in common. When an atheist does something horrible you can't say that everyone is kind of agreeing with that like you could with the bible/koran. You can commit horrible crimes in the name of the bible (that god thinks are fine), you can't do it in the name of atheism.

When religious people throw gays of buildings then how on earth do others of their religion not say "well maybe our book is broken if this is the result". Maybe they don't all agree with this act but if they keep hanging on to their work of fiction like it's sacred then that's a problem.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:47 PM   #148
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

A secular atheist typically has no particular basis on which to value human life, but religious people do.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:49 PM   #149
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

We should put them on some island somewhere just to be safe.
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Old 07-12-2017, 02:03 PM   #150
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Re: A Manual for Creating Atheists

lol
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