So here's a concept I've been mulling over

If God is is in control, he is either allowing something or disallowing something right? So when someone says you're a bad person or you sin or make bad decisions, in the religious sense I've come to think it's false.

a) In almost every religion there's a prophet or divine plan. That indicates that there isn't 'free choice.' If there was free choice, then there's no way you can predict the future correctly with thousands of doors I choose to open or not to get to that point. So if there's no free choice and my choices are catalogued, then surely every bad decision I make was unavoidable right?

b) Why did god make people imperfect? There's no such thing as a perfect person and if God was half as smart as he's made out to be, why does he still expect perfection? Why is the scale of 'good' and 'not good' still so absolutely tuned to his standards?

Isn't the idea of God wanting animal sacrifice, or ultimately sacrificing Jesus, for our sins, an entirely senseless idea?

Isn't that kinda like saying if McDonalds cuts my paycheck, it's MY fault, not corporate headquarters.

I mean he made angels so he's capable of making a species much more attuned to perfection (although that raises the issue of 'if he knew Satan was going to descend and cause evil in the world why did he make him in the first place, but that's for another thread)

I have to ask a question.

When you write a post like this, have you really mulled this over and sharpened to the point that you feel it represents solid, logical thinking such that others would struggle to find fault with it? Or are you trolling, just tossing out partially conceived spontaneous thoughts to see what kind of response you get?

I think the OP is a good question, and on top of that when begginging to explore the God who made the heavens and the earth and painted the universe, how can one help but deal in "partially conceived spontaneous thoughts" .

Is your point that this is a dumb question? If so you could enlighten a bunch of people by sharing your brilliant findings, and seemingly it wouldnt be too difficult.

A) Free Choice <--- I don't think that word(s) means what you think it does.

B) Why did God make people imperfect? If they were perfect...they would be a god.



Are you questioning the existance of a God or the manner in which this non-existing God does business?

I'm pretty sure that I don't know what free choice means - or at least, the SMP guys have convinced me that there is a very good chance that free choice is an illusion, whether or not there is a god. Free choice is a very complex issue.

I guess I think it is a stupid question.

The OP is attempting to show that there are internal inconsistencies in a theistic view of the reality, but a little thought shows his points are flawed. I agree that if one assumes that free will does not exist, then God is responsible for our actions. However, free will may well exist. His point about prophets or by extension God's knowledge of the future does not invalidate free will as he asserts. His point relies on the simplistic view of time and causality that we intuitively perceive. However, even current physics recognizes that our intuitive perception of time is flawed although the full structure of time and space is not resolved. God could perceive all of time without the linear structure that we perceive. Thus all of our future actions would be known, without actually impacting the free will that generated those decisions.

My problem with posts like the OP is that I truly do not know how to react to them. Maybe I should just move on from this forum. I guess I do not feel I am getting anything positive from it anymore.

The biggest flaw in Christianity and all religions is that they are conceived by man.

Out of context the whole thing is absurd. But in context I think its beautiful and complex, but I will just touch on it in a very brief simple way. As you read this please just see it as an answer to the question of sacrafice, and dont say "well i think the whole story is just silly bull****" that is certainly a valid conversation that could be had, but for a moment just look to reconcile the matter of why God would introduce sacrafice.

Adam and Eve are in the Garden NAKED nothing to hide, having a good time and as God intended they have full access to Him, He actually walks with them in the Garden. There is nothing to hide, there is full confidence in the mind of man that they are acceptable and "good" in the sight of God. Which when it comes to the deepest part of a man's understanding of himself is certainly paramont, "How does God see me" brings with it either much comfort or much uncertainty to anyone that has pondered it.

Then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, an act of disobedience. (Could be pondered for a lifetime "why God gave man the choice to be disobedient..." but again just talking of sacrafice) Man decides that what he wants is different than what God wants, that He doesnt want to enjoy complete agreement w God, but rather he wants to do something differnt so he eats the fruit.

Suddenly the reality of what He has done hits him and now his certainty of Gods perspective of him has to change completely from "everythings all good with God" to "Oh **** I just crossed the line, this is not good, I must hide from God because in light of my disobedience, i can NOT be thought of well by God" (again this is the issue w man, how is our relationship with our maker). So Adam literally runs and trys to hide from, in shame, in fear, in self loathing.

God comes into the picture and says "Adam.....where ya at? What are you doing" Adam basically says "well I messed up and I cant stand before you cause I realize now I am bare ass naked"

That is interesting because God made him naked, he was living in perfect harmony naked, so why would being naked be suddeny a big deal, when it never was an issue with God before. Seemingly eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil illuminates the concious to the notion of good and evil, yet does very little to distinguish what is actually good and evil. So the key issue that God has to fix is "How do I illustrate to them that they are okay in my eyes" "how do I reassure man that His maker is still at peace with him, that they still can have perfect harmony with me" Because again, this is the whole reason we exist to be in relationship with our maker.

So FOR OUR SAKE (not because God loooves the sight and smell of blood) Genesis 3:21 "The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them" (this is the very first animal sacrafice)

God says "alright Adam, I see we got a problem here, you see that you are naked, you think I have a problem with that, so I am going to put your mind at ease, I am going to kill this animal and cover you in clothes, that way you will again feel acceptable and unashamed in my sight"

This system of sacrafice is introduced not to please God, not cause he's a sick monster, but because in the case of Adams shame at being naked in front of God, it is a real life solution to the problem of shame and fear and guilt produced by Adams disobedience.

Biblicly The sacrafices continue and continue and continue throughout ages and man twistst in His mind (As many observers do today) that sacraficing pleases God (God even says I dont desire your sacrafices, they dont appease me) When the whole intent was to conciously bring man back into assured fellowship with the Lord.

SO then theres the issue of Christ. God basically says
"look you are missing the entire point of this sacrafice stuff, I DONT WANT IT, all I want is for you to have certainty of your fellowship with me, for you to live a life in light of being fully aware and assured of the Love your God has for you" So He himself steps out of eternity and makes the sacrafice to end all sacrafices. He basically says "THIS IS THE LAST SACRAFICE TO ME THAT EVER NEEDS TO BE MADE, WILL YOU NOT NOW SEE THAT YOU HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH ME THAT I LOVE YOU DESPERATLEY, WILL YOUR MIND NOT NOW BE AT EASE THAT I LOVE YOU?" "I JUST SENT MY PERFECT SON, TO DIE SACRAFICIALLY TO BRING YOU INTO REST, TO GIVE YOU PEACE OF MIND, SO YOU DONT HAVE TO WORRY ANYMORE IF I LOVE YOU, YOU ARE OKAY IN MY SIGHT, JUST ACCEPT THAT YOU ARE!!"

Thats the basic jist of it, its actually a logical solution to the original problem, Adam is literally naked, and feels the need to be covered in order to be good w God, so God makes him clothes. Its a beautiful narrative of love, of a God who has from creation just wanted us to walk with him as we were created to and to feel the peace with him he intends us to have.
At least as I see it.

I def see what you are saying, and it certainly does boil down to the simplistic view of time and space as we precieve it. You have to understand though that for someone wrestling with this concept, that is a real life barrier that they are actually going to come up against, and while the question isnt brilliant, it is certainly the beginning of a concious expanding journey.

The edge of ones awareness of the time and space as we exist in it, will always bring with it questions of this nature as it pertains to God, and if you compare it to all the other questions people are asking around the world today "which sock shall i jack off into, and what combo meal at mcdonalds will I eat" It should be given far more respect and is far more productive.

Acemanhattan did Adam and Eve/Garden of Eden really happen in your opinion? The reason why we are clothed is due to shame?

Wow...seriously?


Let me ask you this.... What does freedom of speech mean to you?

I believe that the Bible is in whole God's story about himself writen for man.
That it is inspired by God and written by God through men.

I can not say for certain if God wrote a history book rich in deep narrative truths, or if he wrote a novel with the intention of illustrating what he wants to illustrate or if he wrote a combination. To me the fact is God gave us His book and they are his truths.

I dont know if the entire world was a tropical paradise, or if its geography was the same as it is now, so I wont get into a debate about the necessity of clothing or why we as a civilization wear them cause its really just a silly side debate that leads nowhere. The fact is the story we are given is one of the the first two people on the planet, living naked in a perfect climate that didnt necessitate clothing. And the reason THEY where clothed is certainly due to shame.

It's somewhat poorly phrased, alright.
What seems odd to me is the last part, in terms of how we assign 'responsibility'. God exists outside of time and space, so god never 'learns' anything, right? God on Wednesday knows everything that god on Friday knows.

Doesn't this mean that, in a sense, there is 'constant creation'? That at every point in time where god chooses not to intervene to prevent some evil, god is affirming the initial act of creation, at the time of which, god knew everything it ever will know?

If that's the case, then in what sense is god not responsible for our actions? I don't care about 'free will'; say we have it or say we don't, I don't think it matters for this.

so you think that angels are gods?

We don't need to go down that road for this discussion. Won't derail this thread. Start here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/47...minism-613211/ you'll see a bit of what I'm talking about.

christianity is not a religion it is the Truth

I am not sure it is meaningful to say the "time of creation" as time was created then also. I am also not sure I fully understand your point.

If God created us, then it may seem reasonable to say that God is responsible for our evil, but I do not see it that way. The analogy would be if I invented a knife. The knife can be used for good or evil so you could say that I was responsible for both. But my view is that good or evil is created at the point that the wielder of the knife makes their choice, so that is where the responsibility rests.

yes

please provide Christian scripture where angels = gods

Are you saying that all of the times that the bible refers to 'gods' that they are talking about other beings than angels?

No, that's not what I mean. I mean that at the 'time' of creation (let's ignore any quibble about that for now, if it becomes important we can look at it later), god knew what the last event of the last second of 'time' was/would be, and all events in between. Every moment at which god does not intervene to prevent some evil occurring is then a 'decision' made by god to affirm the original act of creation. That's what I meant by 'constant creation'.

Am I not responsible - even partially - if I fail to prevent an evil I easily could prevent?

You can get around this by saying that god never intervenes, but as far as I'm aware, the god you believe in does from time to time intervene.

Do you believe that if God intervenes every time someone does something wrong that we would still have free will?

i'm not 'saying' anything i was just wondering if there was biblical text supporting the thesis that angels are categorized as gods

Passages that say/imply there is only one God:

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh. " Genesis 2:24
"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
"Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
"For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
"Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
"You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
"O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
"You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
"For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
"You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
"‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
"Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
"I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
"And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one [hen] flesh"? " Matthew 19:5
"But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8
"Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10
""The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; " Mark 12:29
"you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?" John 5:44
"I and the Father are one [hen]." John 10:30
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God" John 17:3
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one [hen]" John 17:22
"since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30
"to the only [monos] wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27
"there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4
"yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6
"Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20
"There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God" 1 Timothy 1:17
"which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16
"For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
"You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19
"For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4
"the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 25

Yes. You must have a question lined up behind that, so that's all I'll say...



...for now. Fire away.