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11-22-2013 , 12:50 AM
http://ergofabulous.org/luther/?

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Take care, you evil and wrathful spirits. God may ordain that in swallowing you may choke to death.
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I can with good conscience consider you a fart-ass and an enemy of God.
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This site is meant entirely in good humor. Just as the Shakespearean Insulter was meant in good humor and not as a judgment upon the bard, so this insult generator presents some of Luther's more crass words in good humor and not as a judgment upon the reformer.
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11-22-2013 , 06:16 AM
Luther would win any battle-rap:
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You are the head of all the worst scoundrels on earth, a vicar of the devil, an enemy of God, an adversary of Christ, a destroyer of Christ's churches; a teacher of lies, blasphemies, and idolatries; an arch-thief and robber; a murderer of kings and inciter to all kinds of bloodshed; a brothel-keeper over all brothel-keepers and all vermin, even that which cannot be named; an Antichrist, a person of sin and child of perdition; a true werewolf.
This one was good, it actually made me angry:
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You reek of nothing but Lucian, and you breathe out on me the vast drunken folly of Epicurus.
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11-22-2013 , 08:37 AM
Ah yes, Martin Luther, follower of Jesus meek and mild...

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I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.
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Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools.
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Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self*glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.
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First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly * and I myself was unaware of it * will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe*conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.
He's not exactly Oscar Wilde, is he?
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11-22-2013 , 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by zumby
Ah yes, Martin Luther, follower of Jesus meek and mild...
The website deliberately removes Jewish references from the insulter. The cultural equivalent to those references is something like someone using the word n***** during the slavery era. Carrying the language into a contemporary context is wrought with difficulties.
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11-22-2013 , 10:48 AM
Oh do behave. A 7 point plan to rob, evict and enslave Jewish people is not just a case of unfortunate wording.
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11-22-2013 , 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by zumby
Oh do behave. A 7 point plan to rob, evict and enslave Jewish people is not just a case of unfortunate wording.
I didn't say it was unfortunate wording. I'm saying that the post-Nazi world sees the statements with stronger cultural baggage than in his contemporary setting.

My understanding (admittedly limited) is that most of the writings were a result of his failed attempts to convert Jews, or even gain any ground in his attempt to convert them. So he wrote satirical pieces using strong language towards them similar to the language he used for others who rebuffed him.

But in the present tense, since his words WERE used a few hundred years after they were written to fuel stronger anti-semitic Germany (and by coincidence being German himself), we view the words in a much more egregious light.

Edit: In other words, if Nazi Germany didn't happen, we would not have as strong of a reaction to the words as we do because Nazi Germany happened.
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11-22-2013 , 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by zumby
Oh do behave. A 7 point plan to rob, evict and enslave Jewish people is not just a case of unfortunate wording.
I think the following will illustrate my point:

Do you think that a contemporary of Martin Luther would have read these writings and understand them as a literal set of instructions? If not, what would be the most reasonable way to understand extremely over-the-top language such as this?

[And if you think that the answer to the first question is "yes" then I simply disagree with you. I see no reasonable basis upon which to think that these were writings meant to be taken as literal instructions by contemporaries.]
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11-22-2013 , 01:14 PM
zumby do you have a link for that stuff? I want to taunt my lutheran friend :P

I had no idea
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11-22-2013 , 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron W.
I think the following will illustrate my point:

Do you think that a contemporary of Martin Luther would have read these writings and understand them as a literal set of instructions? If not, what would be the most reasonable way to understand extremely over-the-top language such as this?

[And if you think that the answer to the first question is "yes" then I simply disagree with you. I see no reasonable basis upon which to think that these were writings meant to be taken as literal instructions by contemporaries.]
The community Luther came from had already evicted the Jews from their land, and two years before Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies" the Reichstag of Regensburg had attempted to pass a law forbidding Jews to enter into monetary transaction, along with the backdrop of numerous mass explusions, the blood libels and so on. So I don't find it at all hard to believe that his suggestions would be taken literally, or at least, not just taken as light-hearted banter.
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11-22-2013 , 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by well named
zumby do you have a link for that stuff? I want to taunt my lutheran friend :P
Google "On the Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther.

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I had no idea
Yeah it's pretty grim. Obviously Luther was a significant influence on Hitler who both followed Luther's plan to the letter and bigged him up in Mein Kampf. This site has a selection of quotations from prominent Nazis (some during the Nuremberg trials) praising Luther for being an inspiration to them.

Last edited by zumby; 11-22-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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11-22-2013 , 01:27 PM
You are like mouse-dropping in the pepper.

From On the Councils and the Church, pg. 56 of Luther's Works, Vol. 41
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11-22-2013 , 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by zumby
The community Luther came from had already evicted the Jews from their land, and two years before Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies" the Reichstag of Regensburg had attempted to pass a law forbidding Jews to enter into monetary transaction, along with the backdrop of numerous mass explusions, the blood libels and so on. So I don't find it at all hard to believe that his suggestions would be taken literally, or at least, not just taken as light-hearted banter.
There was certainly a backdrop of antisemitism throughout Europe at the time (well, through much of history), but this was a relatively peaceful time for the Jews in Europe, being mostly isolated in ghettos and generally not having a lot of interactions with other communities.

I welcome you to provide evidence that such statements were, in fact, taken literally. I did some reading, and have not found evidence that "On the Jews and Their Lies" actually led to contemporary (physical) attacks on Jews or Jewish communities, including Jewish structures, which strongly implies that it was not taken that way. That is, it took several hundred years (ie, non-contemporaries) before such statements were taken literally.
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11-22-2013 , 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron W.
I didn't say it was unfortunate wording. I'm saying that the post-Nazi world sees the statements with stronger cultural baggage than in his contemporary setting.
WTF? The post-Nazi world, having seen the horror to which it can lead, is less anti-Semitic. Thus, people today are more likely to condemn Luther for his views about Jews, but that doesn't mean it has less "cultural baggage." If anything, it would have been more resonant then, because the ubiquity of attitudes not that different from Luther's.

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My understanding (admittedly limited) is that most of the writings were a result of his failed attempts to convert Jews, or even gain any ground in his attempt to convert them. So he wrote satirical pieces using strong language towards them similar to the language he used for others who rebuffed him.
No. Luther was almost certainly a racist (he says of the rumor that Jews killed Christian children that this crime "still shines forth from their eyes and their skin. We are at fault in not slaying them." His opposition to the Jews was also based not in their not being open to conversion, but also to their supposed slanders against Christians and Christian heroes (e.g. Mary) as well as their supposed attempts to convert Christians.

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But in the present tense, since his words WERE used a few hundred years after they were written to fuel stronger anti-semitic Germany (and by coincidence being German himself), we view the words in a much more egregious light.
Germany was very anti-Semitic at the time--with many cities corralling Jews in ghettoes, or expelling them from the city, or barring them from commercial activity, etc.
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Edit: In other words, if Nazi Germany didn't happen, we would not have as strong of a reaction to the words as we do because Nazi Germany happened.
Again, WTF? If we didn't know that Luther's views and attitudes towards Jews could lead to the systematic murder of millions we wouldn't feel so negatively about it? Well, now we know.

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.
There was certainly a backdrop of antisemitism throughout Europe at the time (well, through much of history), but this was a relatively peaceful time for the Jews in Europe, being mostly isolated in ghettos and generally not having a lot of interactions with other communities.
Uhhhhh...citation?

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I welcome you to provide evidence that such statements were, in fact, taken literally. I did some reading, and have not found evidence that "On the Jews and Their Lies" actually led to contemporary (physical) attacks on Jews or Jewish communities, including Jewish structures, which strongly implies that it was not taken that way. That is, it took several hundred years (ie, non-contemporaries) before such statements were taken literally.
Here is Luther again: He was willing to kill a "a blaspheming Jew": "I would slap his face and, if I could fling him to the ground and, in my anger, pierce him with my sword."

Maybe the word you are looking for is hyperbolic. It is true that Luther used very exaggerated language and maybe he was speaking more as a demagogue than a city planner. But there is no reason to think his statements were satirical that I see.
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11-22-2013 , 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Original Position
WTF? The post-Nazi world, having seen the horror to which it can lead, is less anti-Semitic. Thus, people today are more likely to condemn Luther for his views about Jews, but that doesn't mean it has less "cultural baggage." If anything, it would have been more resonant then, because the ubiquity of attitudes not that different from Luther's.
Half-right. Because of the decreased tolerance for anti-Semitism, the connotations of such writings magnifies the anti-Semitic sentiment it conveys because they are more outside the norm. This means an increase in cultural baggage. Going back to the term n*****, at the time that its use was prevalent, there was simply no other word for it. So that word was not loaded with racism in the sense that we understand it today.

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No. Luther was almost certainly a racist (he says of the rumor that Jews killed Christian children that this crime "still shines forth from their eyes and their skin. We are at fault in not slaying them."
I agree Luther was racist by the end of his life.

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His opposition to the Jews was also based not in their not being open to conversion, but also to their supposed slanders against Christians and Christian heroes (e.g. Mary) as well as their supposed attempts to convert Christians.
If you look at his views from his youth (youth might be too strong -- from his earlier years), there seems to be a clear indication that his views of Jews changed over time. Therefore, the anti-Semitism expressed later in his life come as a response to something that happened during his life. During his life, the general attitude towards Jews in the culture at large was roughly constant. This means that his change in viewpoint cannot be primarily accounted for by the culture he was in.

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I'll respond to the rest later.
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11-22-2013 , 05:56 PM
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11-22-2013 , 05:59 PM
disappointingly, my friend already was well informed about Luther's anti-semitism
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11-22-2013 , 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by well named
disappointingly, my friend already was well informed about Luther's anti-semitism
Eh, I mean, tbh, I think it's fine for someone to endorse Luther's views on theology or whatever, whilst also thoroughly rejecting his views on Jewish people. The trouble is, for a lot of theists it seems like they just can't take this sort of position... their role models and/or co-religionists must have their saintly reputations preserved, so we get ludicrous situations like the one Aaron is getting himself into here.
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11-22-2013 , 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zumby
Eh, I mean, tbh, I think it's fine for someone to endorse Luther's views on theology or whatever, whilst also thoroughly rejecting his views on Jewish people. The trouble is, for a lot of theists it seems like they just can't take this sort of position... their role models and/or co-religionists must have their saintly reputations preserved, so we get ludicrous situations like the one Aaron is getting himself into here.
Nope. I'm not Lutheran and am not trying to create a picture of Martin Luther as being without fault. Nor do I accept his views of Jews as being orthodoxy in any sense. However, there's a real difference between contextualization of statements and justification of them. My goal is to contextualize, but you are portraying me as if my goal is to justify. There's a highly volatile and emotional element here, which makes it harder to sift through the data to get to actual information.

The fact that OrP mistook "cultural baggage" in the wrong direction is a strong indicator of how delicate the conversation is. It seems clear to me that n***** carries more cultural baggage today than it did back then for the reasons I stated. And the parallel of anti-Semitism carrying more baggage today than back then seems to fit appropriately.
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11-22-2013 , 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Original Position
Germany was very anti-Semitic at the time--with many cities corralling Jews in ghettoes, or expelling them from the city, or barring them from commercial activity, etc.
Yes. Most of Europe was anti-Semitic for most of history. I've looked around some, and I seem to have some dates slightly shifted around in my head. I had the ghettoization of the Jews in Europe having already happened during that time, not happening during that time.

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Again, WTF? If we didn't know that Luther's views and attitudes towards Jews could lead to the systematic murder of millions we wouldn't feel so negatively about it? Well, now we know.
Yes. But that doesn't speak at all to the views of his contemporaries, which was the point in question.

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Here is Luther again: He was willing to kill a "a blaspheming Jew": "I would slap his face and, if I could fling him to the ground and, in my anger, pierce him with my sword."

Maybe the word you are looking for is hyperbolic. It is true that Luther used very exaggerated language and maybe he was speaking more as a demagogue than a city planner. But there is no reason to think his statements were satirical that I see.
Hyperbolic is another word that is apt, but his own word choice was satire.

http://www.humanitas-international.o...uther-jews.htm

From Part XII:

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The result is that they [The Jews] can not be God's people, no matter how much they teach, clamor, and pray. They do not hear God; so he, in turn, does not hear them, as Psalm 18 :26 says: "With the crooked thou dost show thyself per verse." The wrath of God has overtaken them. I am loath to think of this, and it has not been a pleasant task for me to write this book being obliged to resort now to anger, now to satire, in order to avert my eyes from the terrible picture which they present. It has pained me to mention their horrible blasphemy concerning our Lord and his dear mother, which we Christians are grieved to hear. I can well understand what St. Paul means in Romans 10 [9:2] when he says that he is saddened as he considers them. I think that every Christian experiences this when he reflects seriously, not on the temporal misfortunes and exile which the Jews bemoan, but on the fact that they are condemned to blaspheme, curse, and vilify God himself and all that is God's, for their eternal damnation, and that they refuse to hear and acknowledge this but regard all of their doings as zeal for God. O God, heavenly Father, relent and let your wrath over them be sufficient and come to an end, for the sake of your dear Son! Amen.
Edit: Note that Book XII contains the list of prescribed actions referred to above.

Edit 2: The next paragraph in part:

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I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish.
Obviously, I disagree with the prescribed medicine. And the suggested actions would be practiced as anti-Semitic. But there's just a little more to it than pure hatred of Jews.

Last edited by Aaron W.; 11-22-2013 at 08:01 PM.
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