I'm posting the Tribes link just to make you aware of them.
I'm not an expert on them this is just a recent historical development in biblical prophecy. As there are many links on this subject feel free to find any of your own regarding The Tribes. I'm not guaranteeing the worthiness of the links just opening a discussion on this interesting development.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/losttribes.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=16766

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=16766

This article is a prime example of twisting the Word of God until it says anything you want it to.

What was twisted about it?

The article isn't twisted. It is the variations that come from interpretation that I was referring to. Like a messianic jew...I don't know what the textbook definition of this is...but I'm gonna assume they believe the Jesus is the messiah. Wouldn't that make them a Christian? But yet they want to continue the laws & practices of the Old Covenant. They need to make a decision here....Jew or Christian. IMO, can't be both.

FWIW, there are other 'denominations' out there not mentioned in this article that fall into the same category of one foot in the Old Covenant, one foot in the New.

This is a confusing area I need to read up more on. I think Christians are grafted into the vine of Judaism.

All these tribes that have been hidden for 2,700 years coming out now somehow signals we are near or in the end times. Not that we will know the exact time, but that it is approaching.

I lifted this excerpt for you: "A Messianic Jew is a Jewish person who believes that Yeshua (Jesus) is their Messiah. Some people think that a Jewish person who believes in Jesus is no longer a Jew. But what could possibly be more Jewish than believing in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua?"

If you can get a book by John Hagee called Jerusalem Countdown it is pretty amazing. Hagee is from Cornerstone Church in Texas and I think I've seen his face on t.v. You probably wouldn't normally pay attention to him because he's not very glamorous.

I didn't read the whole thing completely but I skimmed a good part of it. He has some pretty interesting scriptural analysis on the interrelationships between Christianity and Judaism and their relevance to the end times. He showed an astonishing amount of knowledge in that book.

So they're saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah, huh?

I think you're way off on the 'Christians grafted into Jews' thing. If you can support it scripturally, I'm certainly open to studying it.

I agree that the Jews & Israel will play a significant role in the End Times.

I would also rethink putting much stock in believing Hagee. He's skating dangerously close to the textbook definition of a false prophet.

http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=868

These "messianic jews" are believed to be jews who had converted to christianity or jews who took on many christian rituals (which later became beliefs) due to persecution or compulsion.

Generally, Judaism considers someone born jewish to always be jewish - some strains of judaism believe that anyone taking on another religion is no longer jewish, however this is a minority position.

Whatever the history, belief in Jesus as the messiah is not compatible with Judaism and so these people should not be described (in terms of what religious, rather than ethnic group they belong to) as Jews.

Edit: there are many groups of traditional jews that do believe in a messiah - just not jesus - and are more accurately described as "messianic jews". The hassidim are a good example.

Here's some scripture from the modern translation of The Bible known as The Message. Of course we're still Christians its just our root seems to be the same:

Romans 11
The Loyal Minority
1-2Does this mean, then, that God is so fed up with Israel that he'll have nothing more to do with them? Hardly. Remember that I, the one writing these things, am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham out of the tribe of Benjamin. You can't get much more Semitic than that! So we're not talking about repudiation. God has been too long involved with Israel, has too much invested, to simply wash his hands of them.
2-6Do you remember that time Elijah was agonizing over this same Israel and cried out in prayer?

God, they murdered your prophets,
They trashed your altars;
I'm the only one left and now they're after me!
And do you remember God's answer?
I still have seven thousand who haven't quit,
Seven thousand who are loyal to the finish.

It's the same today. There's a fiercely loyal minority still—not many, perhaps, but probably more than you think. They're holding on, not because of what they think they're going to get out of it, but because they're convinced of God's grace and purpose in choosing them. If they were only thinking of their own immediate self-interest, they would have left long ago.

7-10And then what happened? Well, when Israel tried to be right with God on her own, pursuing her own self-interest, she didn't succeed. The chosen ones of God were those who let God pursue his interest in them, and as a result received his stamp of legitimacy. The "self-interest Israel" became thick-skinned toward God. Moses and Isaiah both commented on this:

Fed up with their quarrelsome, self-centered ways,
God blurred their eyes and dulled their ears,
Shut them in on themselves in a hall of mirrors,
and they're there to this day.
David was upset about the same thing:
I hope they get sick eating self-serving meals,
break a leg walking their self-serving ways.
I hope they go blind staring in their mirrors,
get ulcers from playing at god.

Pruning and Grafting Branches
11-12The next question is, "Are they down for the count? Are they out of this for good?" And the answer is a clear-cut No. Ironically when they walked out, they left the door open and the outsiders walked in. But the next thing you know, the Jews were starting to wonder if perhaps they had walked out on a good thing. Now, if their leaving triggered this worldwide coming of non-Jewish outsiders to God's kingdom, just imagine the effect of their coming back! What a homecoming!
13-15But I don't want to go on about them. It's you, the outsiders, that I'm concerned with now. Because my personal assignment is focused on the so-called outsiders, I make as much of this as I can when I'm among my Israelite kin, the so-called insiders, hoping they'll realize what they're missing and want to get in on what God is doing. If their falling out initiated this worldwide coming together, their recovery is going to set off something even better: mass homecoming! If the first thing the Jews did, even though it was wrong for them, turned out for your good, just think what's going to happen when they get it right!

16-18Behind and underneath all this there is a holy, God-planted, God-tended root. If the primary root of the tree is holy, there's bound to be some holy fruit. Some of the tree's branches were pruned and you wild olive shoots were grafted in. Yet the fact that you are now fed by that rich and holy root gives you no cause to crow over the pruned branches. Remember, you aren't feeding the root; the root is feeding you.

19-20It's certainly possible to say, "Other branches were pruned so that I could be grafted in!" Well and good. But they were pruned because they were deadwood, no longer connected by belief and commitment to the root. The only reason you're on the tree is because your graft "took" when you believed, and because you're connected to that belief-nurturing root. So don't get cocky and strut your branch. Be humbly mindful of the root that keeps you lithe and green.

21-22If God didn't think twice about taking pruning shears to the natural branches, why would he hesitate over you? He wouldn't give it a second thought. Make sure you stay alert to these qualities of gentle kindness and ruthless severity that exist side by side in God—ruthless with the deadwood, gentle with the grafted shoot. But don't presume on this gentleness. The moment you become deadwood, you're out of there.

23-24And don't get to feeling superior to those pruned branches down on the ground. If they don't persist in remaining deadwood, they could very well get grafted back in. God can do that. He can perform miracle grafts. Why, if he could graft you—branches cut from a tree out in the wild—into an orchard tree, he certainly isn't going to have any trouble grafting branches back into the tree they grew from in the first place. Just be glad you're in the tree, and hope for the best for the others.

A Complete Israel
25-29I want to lay all this out on the table as clearly as I can, friends. This is complicated. It would be easy to misinterpret what's going on and arrogantly assume that you're royalty and they're just rabble, out on their ears for good. But that's not it at all. This hardness on the part of insider Israel toward God is temporary. Its effect is to open things up to all the outsiders so that we end up with a full house. Before it's all over, there will be a complete Israel. As it is written,

A champion will stride down from the mountain of Zion;
he'll clean house in Jacob.
And this is my commitment to my people:
removal of their sins.
From your point of view as you hear and embrace the good news of the Message, it looks like the Jews are God's enemies. But looked at from the long-range perspective of God's overall purpose, they remain God's oldest friends. God's gifts and God's call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded.
30-32There was a time not so long ago when you were on the outs with God. But then the Jews slammed the door on him and things opened up for you. Now they are on the outs. But with the door held wide open for you, they have a way back in. In one way or another, God makes sure that we all experience what it means to be outside so that he can personally open the door and welcome us back in.

33-36Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It's way over our heads. We'll never figure it out.

Is there anyone around who can explain God?
Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do?
Anyone who has done him such a huge favor
that God has to ask his advice?

Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him.
Always glory! Always praise!
Yes. Yes. Yes.


Regarding the Defense of Israel book I didn't get to look it over yet. The Jerusalem Countdown was interesting though.

If Hagee acutally said Jesus was not the Messaiah that certainly sounds strange. I'd have to read what he says in context to see what exactly he is getting at.

[ ] Science, Math, and Philosophy

Yeah, I know alot of SMP regulars are upset. So this is my last post. Thanks for your patience.

Having arrived, taught, reasoned and, ultimately, proven God's existence.... she rides off into the sunset. Whenever a child is frightened by atheists under the bed, perhaps she will reappear. But for now she remains only a whisper on people's breaths...

For anybody interested in Jewish customs and wanting more info on the Lost Tribes some interesting links.

The early Jewish custom of the Pidyon haben:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidyon_haben

Tribes of Israel site:
http://www.cohen-levi.org/the_tribe/..._israel.htm#01

Mods please move thread to RGT. Thanks!

Occasionally I travel into town during rush hour, its as horrific as it always was but reminds me how great it is not to commute anymore.

Its too easy to forget how greatly life is improved when some regular dreary trudge is eliminated.

Amen

[ ] last post

I'm on God's business who's will do you think I'm under?

clearly one that's not remotely close to omniscient

Oh, the old atheist problem, huh?

Confusing God with men?

Men are fallible (fallen).

I don't reflect God as much as you think I should (which is a true conclusion) and you don't either or you would have reflected more before making that statement.

correct. Judaism and Christianity do not mix. That is very clear to anyone who knows anything about Judaism.

That's you that is.

Blaming a load of man-made drivel on god.

I believe many of the Messianic Jews would disagree.

Wiki quotes:

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of religious Jewish practice and terminology."

"Some adherents of Messianic Judaism are ethnically Jewish, and many of them argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism. Jewish organizations, and the Supreme Court of Israel (regarding the Law of Return), have rejected this claim, and instead consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity. From 2003 to 2007, the movement grew from 150 Messianic houses of worship in the United States to as many as 438, with over 100 in Israel and more worldwide; congregations are often affiliated with larger Messianic organizations or alliances. In 2008, the movement was reported to have between 6,000 and 15,000 members in Israel and 250,000 in the United States."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

I've never heard this claim before. I mean about the two witnesses. I've heard about Manasseh as the U.S. and Ephraim as the company of nations, British Commonwealth.

Where did you hear about this?

"Seek, knock, ask"

Well the royalty isn't going to shout it in the streets. Under God's laws they couldn't have acquired all their wealth.

Deut. 17:14-17

14“When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,’ 15you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman. 16“Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall never again return that way.’ 17“He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself. (note the pyramid on dollar bill)

Under God's laws, they would be just like normal people, with their normal plot of land. (Num 33:54)

So there is a conspiracy. (Jer 11:9)