I have a huge problem with people saying anything where God falls silent. Why can't the people take it to God, pray on it and study the bible for themselves?

Don't they know themselves better than anybody else?

They might find God's will for their lives if they did that. Who better to ask than God about what His will is for you?

People get lost all the time in this world when they consult everybody but God because people are fallible, their experience and abilities aren't your experience and abilities and their drives and motives and psychological makeup aren't your drives, motives and psychological makeup. Take all your questions to your Maker. He knows you better than anybody....including yourself.

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Me either, but it may seem that way because of multiquote set up i got goin here. Also typing and tact are effort i don't waste on twoplustwo

This is true. You may find the support you need through someone here.

This statement is true, but the concept is in your head. Why? There are other christians playing poker who are not even considering the argument. The fact that you are may be evidence that you have a problem with it. Get a job?

WHY DOES THE WORLD NEED TO KNOW THAT!! So what! It's useless garbage.

You don't need to organize a group to do this.?. Go do it, if you feel led.

Image of the poker community. WHAT? Image of the poker community. WHAT!! You're not on planet earth to promote the poker community! So what if xx.xxxxx% of the world thinks you're scum. You are! I am too! Filthly, pathetic, dirty, broken, dying dust! Who isn't!


I support this statement.

Nobody will be hurt, but the thread will be derailed pretty severely.

Good luck OP

I would say there isnt much hyperbole in my statement at all. That exact behavior I'm describing can be seen all over these boards from many militant/confrontational Aheists. I should have clarified that I meant on the forum as a whole instead of just this one particular thread.

Not at all, there was a time where i struggled with it, but I spent some time searching and feel confident about my stance, further more I know of several people who have been criticized, condemned, and pushed away by other Christians because of this. I think that others who may have not gotten through that searching yet can find encouragement. I do not need poker as a source of income to survive.


Do you not see that one of the major oppositions to online poker is conservative Christians? Unless you see online poker as useless drivel then this is an important issue that does deserve a voice.

Who is to say I am not already?

That's incorrect. As Christians we should better any community we are apart of. That was the very core of the Acts Church.

As you said, the theists can be just as "irrational, illogical, and overly hypocritical individuals" but playing Captain Save-A-Bro when atheists have already jumped in to OP's defense just makes you look like a bit of numpty.

I fully expected some attacks, and I imagine a fair amount of the attackers have had 1 or more bad experiences with judgemental Christians, and are justified just a bit in their frustrations...

That being said I still hope that there are those out there that can see this as a worth while cause and jump on board...

I actually only saw one poster (Mr Beer) jump in his defense before I made mine. So I'm not sure how that would make me look like an idiot. Also, how does stating the faults of many theists invalidate my statement at all?

Cool, as someone else said, it's not so much that anyone thinks you can't handle some (fairly mild) off-topic posts, it's that immediately derailing a thread is a bit tiresome given the nature of your OP.

@aneurysm, sommerset also pointed out that the thread was being needlessly derailed, but w/e it's beside the point. Both sides of the debate get their threads derailed and it's fine to call it out but what's the point of the whole "omg, if the tables were turned those cultish atheists would cry" ranting? If you want to make some general point about derailing in this forum take it to ATF.

If you know of someone specifically, yea, coach em. I don't think creating an organization is good though. God has a way to lead people into contact with who they'll need along the way. Also...when the bible is silent, you stay silent.


Okay, this is what I wanted to bring out...you didn't mention this specifically as your motive in the OP...but I believe it is. I would team up with already existing groups if I were you...let them articulate the message you add.


? so you agree, you don't need an organization.


you said promote the image of the poker community...i said no...you said, what you said was better any community...i say CALL [never try to hustle a hustler son ]

i know your motives, i'm threw with this thread. I hope I helped.

Now you're definitely over dramatizing what I said. There was zero omg or ranting in my statement. All I did was point out some of the same things many on this board point out and critique about theists. Nothing more. You're now just extrapolating and using hyperbole to try and drive your point.

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend a live poker career to anyone, nevermind a Christian. The live poker scene is full of scam artists, old degenerates and wheezing hustlers. Collusion between regs is a regular thing. You are often worried after a huge night about hijackers, and you are driving home late at night while checking for a tail. Eventually you will be tailed or mugged or conned yourself. It's just a matter of time.

The whole lifestyle is as seedy as can be. I regularly played with drug dealers and criminals who pulled money out of their pockets night after night that were probably taken at gunpoint from someone else. And you are constantly placed in moral dillemmas. You have old degens who have been teaming up on the same tables for years. The floor manager knows it, you know it, they know that you know it, and if you don't want to be knifed in the parking lot one night, you just ask for a table change and keep your mouth shut.

As someone who has earned some dime on and off over the years in Florida and NJ playing live poker, I would never, ever recommend it to anyone who wasn't emotionally disciplined and cool-headed. It's such a disgusting and filthy lifestyle, and the people you will be around 8-14 hours a day are morally bankrupt and physically dirty. Just roll through the NVG thread and you can read weekly stories of cons and hustles and scams. IRL-poker is exactly that. You can't trust anybody.

For those of us who love to play, live poker presents almost insurmountable moral and lifestyle challenges on a weekly basis. But hey-- we are degenerates too, in a way, since we are still playing, despite the life-sucking atmosphere. But I just can't defend it. It feels like a pet sin, though technically, it is not. If you've ever played a 14 hour shift and found the action so good on a holiday weekend that you decide to stay and stick it out and sleep in the parking lot at 4am instead of handing over 95$ just to rent a room for 4-hours, only to be awaken by lot security who kicks you out, and so you move to a local rest area at 8am to catch a few more hours before heading back-- sweaty, filthy and bleary-eyed-- then you know that the lifestyle itself presents health, lifestyle and sanitary challenges that probably are just not worth the money you are grinding out.

When you find yourself at a table with three decrepit reg degens, two G's, one tourist whale and the inevitable 70 year-old woman coughing up a lung while throwing her SS check away...and you are stuffed between two sickly-pallid verminous-looking 22 year-old 2p2 regs who are actually berating the fish and critiquing their play openly, you know its time to get a real job. I'm sure that Christians can do whatever they want, and you can make some money playing live poker, but it's like having to dig through a mountain of dino-manure night after night in order to find the jewelry that hung from the neck of a tourist that the beast snapped up whole the day before. It's hard to feel good about yourself.

All that said, I will probably play again. Selah.

Has this actually happened to you? story? I only dragged a handful of big scores ("big" being a relative term, I guess.) And was always worried about this but it never actually happened.

I dont have faith that when I climb aboard a Boeing 747 that it's going to lift off into the sky and transport me 2000 miles in 4 hours. I have previous proof to convince that it will. This is not faith. Faith by definition means no proof whatsoever. Faith would be saying you climb aboard your magic carpet and travel 2000 miles in 4 hours. You just "believe" it will because someone else "told you" it will. Big difference.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for 1 example of a "1 outer in life". You rattled off a bunch of vague hardships like failed business and marriage, but you still have yet to actually give us a concrete example, like a bullet travelling through your brain causing no damage, or falling from a 100 story building and walking away from it. Show us a 1-outer that made you believe in God. Just one.

Would be a TLDR that would be followed up by you telling me how its coincidence. Better things to do with my time

gg no re

I was beaten and mugged right on the boardwalk one night in front of an arcade by a spanish street gang. Of course I can't prove that any of them had played with us and knew we had wads, but local hustlers def. understand that poker players always have cash on them at the end of the night due to the nature of the lifestyle.

I don't want to sound completely down on live poker, though. It has its perks. You make some really solid business connections at the table, and they respect you if you play FT. They even want to take you out for dinner and pick your brain, because they don't understand how "I can run so bad" and so on. But you have to deal with so many common situations that get annoying after a while, such as people at a party or whatever offering to stake you for a night, saying: "If I put you up for a few K, can you triple it for us next weekend?" I don't know how many hundreds of times I've heard that. And you are wasting your time trying to explain variance to them. It's a foreign language to them. That's why they are there-- for the quick double-up.

I used to drive down to AC all the way from Rahway and do two nights there, one night home. Due to me having a three hour ride home every two nights on the parkway, a hijacker would have been easy to spot. I did the same thing in Florida, coming down from Jensen Beach for two nights down to the Seminole Hard Rock. Both are really scary places late at night. I don't even know which is worse. Hollywood or AC? Take your pick.

Well, I think the new guy has been well hazed into RGT.

Good luck in your search for truth, lilprog. At least you have a taste for the RGT forum on 2+2. It doesn't get any easier from here.

I am not quite sure this answers either of my questions. Namely, what is your most compelling one-outter experience or set of experiences that makes you believe? I wasn't meaning to suggest your life was perfect or had no suffering, I am trying to get a concrete example of why you believe as you do. Secondly, does the extreme suffering of others - those that lose the proverbial one outer - provide any trouble to your mind?

As for faith in cars working, and the like, this is entirely different. We have strong evidence that our car is likely to work in the morning, based on our knowledge and experience of cars. This is a reasonable assumption. It would be unreasonable to believe it with complete certainty - as people do with god - but a good working hypothesis. For god, however, there is no evidence or reason to suppose he exists. You claim you have examples to the contrary where the probabilities indicate his existence. I have never seen such an example hold water before, so I am asking if you can provide your example and we shall see.

This isn`t hard... If I have to take a beating to show that all Christians are not judgemental hypocrites, then so be it...

Well, not all Christians.

I think you guys assume that a one outer means some amazingly awesome thing happened to me and it made my life great and special. If anyone is genuinely curious I`ll be happy to PM about it, but it`s a waste of time to spend 15 minutes typing stuff up just to get harassed.

If I say "God healed me", or "God blessed me financially" the conversation turns to how the body can heal itself, desire for finances leads to better motivation etc.. It was merely a coincidence...

So without writing a novel about literally 1000s of life experiences, the best I can do for you now, and you can take it or leave it is this.. Every day of my life, I see God move in ways that are more than mere coincidences. I get to interact with people and see their lives changed. Sometimes people who have been trying for 20-30-40 years and had no success only to be radically transformed. I`ve seen drug addicts come clean, alcoholics dry up, porn / sex addicts stay pure, people with eating disorders become healthy, suicidal people get a reason to live, and I am just scratching the surface...

Like I said before even if I am wrong, this life that I`m living, the difference I get the privilege to see in people's lives, is well worth it...

I`m not trying to dodge your question uke, if you seriously want to know I`ll type up a long PM. But not going to post it here and get 10 snap responses telling me how I`m believing in pointless coincidences..

Nope there are some decent ones. But understand this. I`m not trying to convert people to Christianity, nor defend Christians. There is a huge difference between trying to convert people to Christianity, and trying to convert people to Christ. If all of you want to hate Christians by all means go for it, I won`t stop you nor try to talk you out of it. But understand this, Christians are not Christ, Christians are imperfect fallable human beings. They do stupid things. I love that Jesus called them sheep. What do sheep do other than baaaa, eat and poop. Christians aren't much different many times.....

It sucks that Christians make Christ look so bad....

How do you know it's God and not Allah, or Krishna, or Shiva, or Bumba, or...