Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-28-2009, 12:43 AM   #1
dannyc43
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 140
Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Just wondering wat you guys thought regarding this issue? Could you justify the killing of one man/woman if it were to save the lives of multiple others? I think this leads back partly to the debate over the death penalty (which personally i am against)
dannyc43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 01:31 AM   #2
DUBBLEBUBBLE
banned
 
DUBBLEBUBBLE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: My straw is in your milkshake
Posts: 972
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Depends to whom you are justifying the kill. There may be a correct answer, but never a just answer.
DUBBLEBUBBLE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 08:18 AM   #3
Splendour
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Don't forget. You are loved by God.
Posts: 18,896
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

I don't think we can determine that.

Say its the Ku Klux Klan versus an innocent infant or the Ku Klux Klan versus some little old lady who has spent her life on good works.

Now on the surface I'd say the baby or old lady outweigh the KKK but then again I can't see inside the KKK members and I can't see the KKK members' futures. Maybe some of those guys are "redeemable" or will do something great in the future and only God can know it.

So no I can't make that call. Besides every person is connected in an unending chain to other people and if I pull one string I affect all kinds of other people. Imagine Einstein or Lincoln had gotten pulled before his time. We might not have had the Emancipation Proclamation or being going to the moon today.

Leave it to God. Its much safer.
Splendour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 08:39 AM   #4
Pyromantha
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,228
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour View Post
We might not have had the Emancipation Proclamation or being going to the moon today.
fwiw as an interesting piece of trivia, no human has been on the surface of the moon since 1972.
Pyromantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 09:38 AM   #5
tame_deuces
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tame_deuces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 17,009
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Yes I think so, but you either have to be pragmatic, fanatic or a utilitarian to think so - atleast in part.

I don't see a connection to the death penalty (as performed in the US), as that does not save the lives of others anymore than the (by comparison) extremely mild prison sentences we have in my country does.

Or maybe to go a little deeper; You would have to add as a requisite that there were no other (feasible within reason) alternative to the killing.
tame_deuces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 09:43 AM   #6
tylerg
adept
 
tylerg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ..........
Posts: 1,008
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

since being pragmatic/fanatic or utilitarian is rare?
tylerg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 09:55 AM   #7
dannyc43
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 140
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

yeh you're right bout the death penalty actually that was stupid of me. yeh i don't really think of myself as a utilitarian or pragmatist really but when i think bout this i always think like i would sacrifice myself to save live of like two others, simply becuase weight of numbers and it feels so logical.
dannyc43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 10:16 AM   #8
Splendour
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Don't forget. You are loved by God.
Posts: 18,896
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyromantha View Post
fwiw as an interesting piece of trivia, no human has been on the surface of the moon since 1972.
Its just an example I was using.

The thought of traveling in space has never appealed to me although it does represent human progress and a lot of discoveries have spun off from it. I'm too used to earth conditions to want to give them up to go putter around in outer space though I do like to travel around the globe we are on. There are probably more discoveries to be made in this world than in any other physical world.
Splendour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 12:44 PM   #9
andyfox
2+2 urban legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La-la land, where else?
Posts: 21,553
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour View Post
I don't think we can determine that.

Say its the Ku Klux Klan versus an innocent infant or the Ku Klux Klan versus some little old lady who has spent her life on good works.

Now on the surface I'd say the baby or old lady outweigh the KKK but then again I can't see inside the KKK members and I can't see the KKK members' futures. Maybe some of those guys are "redeemable" or will do something great in the future and only God can know it.

So no I can't make that call. Besides every person is connected in an unending chain to other people and if I pull one string I affect all kinds of other people. Imagine Einstein or Lincoln had gotten pulled before his time. We might not have had the Emancipation Proclamation or being going to the moon today.

Leave it to God. Its much safer.
Isn't leaving it to God Osama Bin Laden's argument?

Lincoln did get "pulled" before his time.

If taking a life is a crime, taking two lives is two crimes. If we could have saved millions by killing Hitler, shouldn't we have done so? Or should we have left it to God? Would the victims on the planes that flew into the WTC on 9-11 have been wrong to have tried to kill the hijackers?
andyfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 12:53 PM   #10
Splendour
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Don't forget. You are loved by God.
Posts: 18,896
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyfox View Post
Isn't leaving it to God Osama Bin Laden's argument?

Lincoln did get "pulled" before his time.

If taking a life is a crime, taking two lives is two crimes. If we could have saved millions by killing Hitler, shouldn't we have done so? Or should we have left it to God? Would the victims on the planes that flew into the WTC on 9-11 have been wrong to have tried to kill the hijackers?
I honestly have to think about this one more. I consider this a "clean hands" problem and I haven't ever examined the bible for the answer on this.

Its really a problem of when spiritual evil passes acceptable boundaries into our physical world. In truth evil is never acceptable but the point of when to defend or take a stand against it is complicated. Sometimes fleeing evil is not an option. Maybe bigpooch will give his opinion on this if he's monitoring this thread. He didn't agree with Bonhoffeur deciding to join in the assasination attempt on Hitler and I'd like to hear why.

Its a good research topic.
Splendour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 04:11 PM   #11
tame_deuces
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tame_deuces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 17,009
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

If I see a bunch of klansmen attacking an old lady, I'll kill as many of them as need be to stop it. Given that I had the capacity to do so.

For me it's a pretty clearcut case of the lives of a single person (with not much left of her life) being worth far more than the lives of many klansmen.

But then again, I was hardly raised as a pacifist. Needless to say I would still prefer a peaceful method. It helps that I don't like klansmen, so call me a prejudiced.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 09-28-2009 at 04:23 PM.
tame_deuces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 05:03 PM   #12
andyfox
2+2 urban legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La-la land, where else?
Posts: 21,553
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyc43 View Post
Just wondering wat you guys thought regarding this issue? Could you justify the killing of one man/woman if it were to save the lives of multiple others? I think this leads back partly to the debate over the death penalty (which personally i am against)
The death penalty is not about saving other lives. We could lock the culprit in solitary for the rest of his life. It is about justice and punishment.

I don't think you could justify not killing one person if it were to save lots of lives (all other factors being equal).
andyfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 05:07 PM   #13
Praxising
Pooh-Bah
 
Praxising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: somewhere beyond the use by date
Posts: 3,813
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyc43 View Post
Just wondering wat you guys thought regarding this issue? Could you justify the killing of one man/woman if it were to save the lives of multiple others?
Well, if we kill the one guy do all the others become immortal?
Praxising is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 05:42 PM   #14
Weatherhead03
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kelowna BC
Posts: 2,805
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour View Post
I honestly have to think about this one more. I consider this a "clean hands" problem and I haven't ever examined the bible for the answer on this.

Its really a problem of when spiritual evil passes acceptable boundaries into our physical world. In truth evil is never acceptable but the point of when to defend or take a stand against it is complicated. Sometimes fleeing evil is not an option. Maybe bigpooch will give his opinion on this if he's monitoring this thread. He didn't agree with Bonhoffeur deciding to join in the assasination attempt on Hitler and I'd like to hear why.

Its a good research topic.
Wow, Splendour, you never cease to amaze me with your ignorance.
Weatherhead03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 06:31 PM   #15
Anonimiss
journeyman
 
Anonimiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 298
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

only if you're jesus obv
Anonimiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 09:17 PM   #16
dannyc43
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 140
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

yeah i guess wat i was sorta trying to see also something raised in 'The Dark Knight' lol about the prisoners and the civilians and whether people see the lives of those who have committed crimes or are seen in the eyes of society to be worthless or evil, are worth less than that of a law-abiding citzen. If u knew Nelson Mandela (or Martin Luther King for americans) were to die at an early age, how many murderers would u be happy to kill in order for them to survive. (NB. the murderers aint actually the killers of Martin or Nelson, committed unrelated crimes) Please don't come up with the argument that how can u know that Martin or Nelson would've survived, its a hypothetical so suppose if u save them they go on to complete all their good works
dannyc43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2009, 02:25 AM   #17
Hardball47
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: BET FLOP
Posts: 12,935
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Yes, 2 > 1, so two lives are worth twice one life. lol..

No, you cannot justify "killing to save lives" in the hypothetical sense of future actions, whereas a situation like having a sniper shooting a madman with a finger near an explosive trigger is clearly different.
Hardball47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2009, 01:47 PM   #18
Praxising
Pooh-Bah
 
Praxising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: somewhere beyond the use by date
Posts: 3,813
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyc43 View Post
. If u knew Nelson Mandela (or Martin Luther King for americans) were to die at an early age, how many murderers would u be happy to kill in order for them to survive.
none
Praxising is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2009, 01:52 PM   #19
batair
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
batair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: idiocracy
Posts: 16,806
Re: Are the lives of many worth more than a single life?

I think the God of the bible only likes it when the many are killed for the few. Like in The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah or the Endtimes.
batair is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive