Lagtight's views on homosexuality (excised from P&S) - Page 3 - Religion, God, and Theology

Catholics distinguish between venial and mortal sins, where mortal sins are those that require a turning away from God and love, and venial sins are less serious sins that weaken our relationship with God and are an impediment to love, but not wholly inconsistent with them. Here's the Catechism:

I'll admit I didn't think about Catholicism in that post, so thanks for pointing this out. To try and rehabilitate that post a little, I'll say that I think the mortal/venial distinction is at least a contentious one, and making the case for why homosexuality ought be a mortal sin even more so.

Even if I abandon that line, at some point we'll come back to what I first said, which is that either God's edicts on homosexuality are arbitrary or for morally sufficient reason, and ultimately that's the hill I'm willing to die on. It's there that all the opposing arguments fail.

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05-27-2021 , 09:18 AM

#52

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87

Even if I abandon that line, at some point we'll come back to what I first said, which is that either God's edicts on homosexuality are arbitrary or for morally sufficient reason, and ultimately that's the hill I'm willing to die on. It's there that all the opposing arguments fail.

Depending on how you define the word arbitrary, I might agree with you.

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05-27-2021 , 09:25 AM

#53

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87

If we're all condemned by our works then what role do works play in salvation?

None.

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There's little point in coming down hard on practicing homosexuals if they're equally condemned by their acts as anyone else. They're just as capable of whatever sincere repentance is needed as any other sinners.

I agree. Which is why I virtually NEVER bring up the topic of homosexuality; I'm almost always responding to someone else broaching the topic.

I've done open air preaching hundreds of times, and I don't think that I was hardly EVER the one to introduce the topic.

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05-27-2021 , 09:37 AM

#54

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87

I don't think that solves the issue. If we're all sinners then a homosexual can say the exact same things as a heterosexual that "we're all sinners, but I'm trying to work on improvement". A homosexual is no more or less sinful than anyone else. And that's a position that I think Christians can take, and I'm sure plenty do,

And I would be among that plentitude.

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but some clearly have more animus towards LGBT folk than they do plain old heterosexuals. That difference in attitude can only be explained by bigotry.

In my opinion, bigotry isn't the only explanation. Unlike adulters and heterosexual fornicators, homosexuality is openly celebrated in our culture. I've never heard of an " Adulters Pride Parade", for example.

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05-27-2021 , 09:40 AM

#55

lagtight

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

Someone buries their mind in pre-medieval ideas, understanding, doctrine ... then supposes to philosophize about morality with a pathetic authoritarianism. Do the same for astronomy, physics, medicine, chemistry, etc. ... use the millennia old stuff. Why not? STFU already. Philosophy entails thinking for yourself about the nature of reality. Religion entails spieling the magic doctrines of superstitious peoples. You might as well when you go to the hospital funnel the treatment through the ideas of thousands of years ago. Why not? An omniscient god was informing them. You know like demons cause illness/mental illness. I believe, I believe, I believe. The real problem is believing you're evil for not believing. That's what traps people.

Thank you for sharing.

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05-27-2021 , 09:43 AM

#56

lagtight

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

Says the believer in the ancient holy land, so-called: "Oh, how cool. My god's bigotry and misogyny line up so well with my culture's. Praise his name!" 2000 years later ... same story. All you gotta do is believe and stuff like this, not to mentions streets of gold, are all yours.

As always, thanks for sharing/venting.

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05-27-2021 , 09:46 AM

#57

Bladesman87

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By arbitrary I mean without a reason or justification. An arbitrary statement would be one that isn't support by any facts or argument.

Presumably there are going to be a great many sins "celebrated". I can grant adultery isn't, but I don't think I'd agree that fornication isn't celebrated. There's a long list of sins and I'd bet a large amount of them are "celebrated" to some degree.

But none of that matters if we're all sinners anyway and works are irrelevant to salvation. Why is a homosexual any worse than the rest of us?

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05-27-2021 , 10:03 AM

#58

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87

Homosexuals are not worse than the rest of us.

Obedience to God is required for sanctification, but not for salvation.

The chief duty of man is to fear God and obey His commandments:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. - Ecclesiastes 12:13

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05-27-2021 , 10:12 AM

#59

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87

By arbitrary I mean without a reason or justification. An arbitrary statement would be one that isn't support by any facts or argument.

Like the Law of Identity and the Law of Non-Contradiction?

EVERY argument eventually rests on a proposition that is not supported by facts or argument. DUCY?

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05-27-2021 , 10:57 AM

#60

Bladesman87

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Originally Posted by lagtight

Then we're back to why is homosexuality the kind of thing people get all pent up about when it's no different to any other on the list of sins?

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Originally Posted by lagtight

Like the Law of Identity and the Law of Non-Contradiction?

EVERY argument eventually rests on a proposition that is not supported by facts or argument. DUCY?

Well, not everyone buys into the axiomatic approach, but sure, arbitrary in that sense. Is God's morality arbitrary?

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05-27-2021 , 01:50 PM

#61

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87

Then we're back to why is homosexuality the kind of thing people get all pent up about when it's no different to any other on the list of sins?

Well, not everyone buys into the axiomatic approach, but sure, arbitrary in that sense. Is God's morality arbitrary?

In that sense, yes. God's decrees are self-justifying. There is no higher epistemic authority than God. He is Almighty over all.

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05-27-2021 , 02:14 PM

#62

Bladesman87

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This sounds like a presup kind of argument to me. What does it mean for something to be self-justifying?

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05-27-2021 , 02:52 PM

#63

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87

This sounds like a presup kind of argument to me. What does it mean for something to be self-justifying?

A transcendental is a true belief that requires no justification. Logic is one such transcendental.

As a silly example:

Skeptic: I don't believe in the validity of logic. Prove to me that logic is valid. Give me a convincing argument that logic is indeed valid.

Presupper: In order for me to prove to you that logic is valid would require that I use logic. Proving anything entails the validity of logic. The "proof" (so to speak) that logic is valid, is that any attempt to disprove logic would require logic to construct the argument. Any argument "proving" the validity of logic would be viciously circular.

Hence, logic is self-justifying.

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05-27-2021 , 05:40 PM

#64

Bladesman87

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I'm not sure what you mean by prove logic is valid. Validity is a term within logic. I don't think that kind of presup argument holds though. Logic isn't just one thing, we can and do play around with the axioms. It's something I adopt out of need.

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05-27-2021 , 06:21 PM

#65

Original Position

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Originally Posted by lagtight

This is an invalid argument by the presuppositionalist. Not being able to prove that logic is invalid doesn't prove that logic is valid. I can't prove that the number of stars is even, but that doesn't mean that it is odd. More broadly, it is possible that we can't prove anything, including that we can't prove anything.

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05-27-2021 , 06:30 PM

#66

Original Position

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Originally Posted by lagtight

In that sense, yes. God's decrees are self-justifying. There is no higher epistemic authority than God. He is Almighty over all.

The arbitrariness of righteousness on your account is not a matter of epistemology. The relevant feature is not that we can know what is right or wrong because God tells us. Rather, it is that there is nothing in the actions themselves that make it wrong, but rather God's commands making it so. If God had commanded us to hate and murder others, then that would be righteousness. Since you don't believe in morality, there is nothing in love, compassion, or kindness towards towards others that is in itself good. Instead, there is only righteousness, which for you consists in obedience towards God's commands, whatever they are.

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05-27-2021 , 06:36 PM

#67

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Original Position

I agree with all the above.

To be accurate, I should say something like:

Something is proveable only if logic is valid.

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05-27-2021 , 06:37 PM

#68

lagtight

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Originally Posted by Original Position

Well said, sir.

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05-27-2021 , 06:45 PM

#69

Original Position

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Originally Posted by 5 south

Where do the homosexuals fall into?

Catholics have a three-part test for whether something is a mortal sin based on how serious the sin is, whether it is done willingly and with knowledge of its consequences and gravity. I think traditional Catholics would consider homosexual sex, like all fornication, to typically be a mortal sin, although perhaps some might think that modern-day gay Catholics are misled by our sinful culture into false beliefs about the acceptability of homosexuality that might mitigate that to some extent.

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05-27-2021 , 06:50 PM

#70

Original Position

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Originally Posted by lagtight

Well said, sir.

Yeah, although I don't know why obedience is good on your account either. Since you are a moral nihilist, it seems like people who choose to disobey God's commands are equally sound in doing so. Sure, maybe it'll be unpleasant to burn in hell for eternity for doing so, but so what? That doesn't change the rightness of the situation. Any sufficiently powerful individual or organization can torture us into doing what they say, but that doesn't make it right.

Last edited by Original Position; 05-27-2021 at 06:58 PM. Reason: clarity

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05-27-2021 , 06:58 PM

#71

Original Position

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Originally Posted by lagtight

I agree with all the above.

To be accurate, I should say something like:

Something is proveable only if logic is valid.

So let's see, logic is provable only if logic is valid. Thus, the validity of logic depends on assuming without proof basic logical axioms. In other words, the theist who accepts the validity of logic relies on assuming without proof basic logical axioms + god. The atheist who accepts the validity of logic relies on assuming without proof basic logical axioms without god. So much for presuppositionalism.

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05-27-2021 , 07:13 PM

#72

Bladesman87

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I don't know if I'm being dense or obtuse in asking what we mean by "logic is valid"?

I take validity to be a property of arguments. Or are we just meaning that the axioms of the system are true?

Either way if it's necessary to assume logic to demonstrate logic then all that says is that the system itself can't be proven by itself. It doesn't say anything about the truth or necessity.

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05-27-2021 , 07:49 PM

#73

David Sklansky

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Is a person who feels revulsion at the idea of homosexual behavior but simultaneously agrees that gay people should be allowed to marry and there should be laws guaranteeing that they not be discriminated in any way, homophobic?

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05-27-2021 , 08:37 PM

#74

Bladesman87

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Yeah, pretty much.

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05-27-2021 , 08:49 PM

#75

Original Position

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky

I don't think there is any fact of the matter answer to this. It just depends on how you are defining "homophobic," which will vary based on the context and person.

I also think there is a finer distinction here as well - feeling revulsion at the idea of homosexual behavior in general and feeling revulsion at the idea of personally engaging in homosexual behavior. I would be concerned about the former feeling negatively influencing my attitude and behavior towards homosexuals in ways I might not be conscious of or notice. The latter just means that you are very heterosexual and seems completely unobjectionable to me.

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