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Old 07-27-2016, 01:31 AM   #1
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Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

He had no form of majesty, but was despised and rejected by men and we esteemed him not. He was PIERCED for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.

He "poured out his soul to DEATH" and "bore the sins of many."

Does this not sound like a suffering Messiah to you?

Don't wait till he comes in his full glory to believe...
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Old 07-27-2016, 06:53 AM   #2
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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He had no form of majesty, but was despised and rejected by men and we esteemed him not. He was PIERCED for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.

He "poured out his soul to DEATH" and "bore the sins of many."

Does this not sound like a suffering Messiah to you?

Don't wait till he comes in his full glory to believe...
Here's a few more quotes from Isaiah:

Isaiah 41: "But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen."

Isaiah 44: "But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen"

Isaiah 44: "Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant ..."

Isaiah 45: "For the sake of of Jacob, my servant, of Israel my chosen."

Isaiah 44: "Remember these things O Jacob, for you are my servant , O Israel."

Isaiah 48: "The lord has redeemed his servant Jacob."

Isaiah 49: "You are my servant Israel, in whom ..."

Isaiah 49: "he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself"

Isaiah 49: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those to Israel I have kept."

Based on this, I think the answer to your question is no unless, of course, Isaiah 53 is all of a sudden talking about a different servant.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:12 AM   #3
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

Subjective Validation, applied to er.... someone else.

Yes it sounds like a suffering Messiah, but that doesn't mean that it is, and what Mason wrote somewhat undermines it meaning the Messiah.

Think you may just be seeing what you want to see and not what is actually there mate.
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Old 07-27-2016, 11:28 AM   #4
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

You would literally have to butcher Scripture with a gardening rake before you could conclude that Isaiah 53 is not referring to a SINGLE individual.

http://chaim.org/nation.htm

Quote:
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
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6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?
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7. The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.
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Old 07-27-2016, 12:14 PM   #5
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

Matthew 8:17 quotes from Isaiah 53:4 referring to Jesus' healing ministry:

that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses."
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Old 07-27-2016, 12:17 PM   #6
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

1 Peter 2:24 also quotes from Isaiah 53:5

Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.
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Old 07-27-2016, 12:20 PM   #7
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

Isaiah 53:5 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed.
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Old 07-27-2016, 05:23 PM   #8
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

In Acts 8, Philip converted an Ethiopian, using Isaiah 53:

28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
33
In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”[e] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
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Old 07-27-2016, 05:33 PM   #9
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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You would literally have to butcher Scripture with a gardening rake before you could conclude that Isaiah 53 is not referring to a SINGLE individual.

http://chaim.org/nation.htm
Quoting directly from Isaiah is not butchering Scripture.

And now for some questions:

1. Isaiah refers to the servant as Jacob and/or Israel. Do you know what these two names stand for?

2. Are you aware that the last part of the book of Isaiah is known as the Four Servant Songs and that Isaiah 53 is part of the Fourth Servant Song?

3. Do you know what these four servant songs are about?

4. Do you know who is speaking in Isaiah 53? (Yes Isaiah wrote the words but someone else is speaking.)

5. And do you know what the speaker's words in Isaiah 53 mean?

Once you can answer these questions, your question of whom Jews believe Isaiah is talking about in Isaiah 53 will be answered.

MM
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:41 PM   #10
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Quoting directly from Isaiah is not butchering Scripture.

And now for some questions:

1. Isaiah refers to the servant as Jacob and/or Israel. Do you know what these two names stand for?

2. Are you aware that the last part of the book of Isaiah is known as the Four Servant Songs and that Isaiah 53 is part of the Fourth Servant Song?

3. Do you know what these four servant songs are about?

4. Do you know who is speaking in Isaiah 53? (Yes Isaiah wrote the words but someone else is speaking.)

5. And do you know what the speaker's words in Isaiah 53 mean?

Once you can answer these questions, your question of whom Jews believe Isaiah is talking about in Isaiah 53 will be answered.

MM
The idea that Isaiah 53 doesn't refer to the Messiah was unheard of among Jewish thought for 1,000 years until after Christ. The unanimous view, and the only view for 1,000 years was that that passage was Messianic.

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications...3-n06/isaiah53

What do the early rabbis say?

Some of the first written interpretations or targums (ancient paraphrases on biblical texts) see this passage as referring to an individual servant, the Messiah, who would suffer. Messianic Jewish talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts those early views:3

"Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God's Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words:

'Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).'"
"We find the same interpretation in the Babylonian Talmud:

What is his [the Messiah's] name? The Rabbis said: His name is "the leper scholar," as it is written, "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted." (Sanhedrin 98b)
"Similarly, in an explanation of Ruth 2:14 in the Midrash Rabbah it states:

He is speaking of the King Messiah: "Come hither" draw near to the throne "and dip thy morsel in the vinegar," this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities."
"The Zohar, in its interpretation of Isaiah 53, points to the Messiah as well:

There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel. All of these come and rest upon Him. And had He not thus lightened them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the trangression of the law; as it is written, "Surely our sicknesses he has carried." (Zohar II, 212a)
The early sages expected a personal Messiah to fulfill the Isaiah prophecy. No alternative interpretation was applied to this passage until the Middle Ages. And then, a completely different view was presented. This view was popularized by Jewish commentator Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzchaki), who lived one thousand years after Jesus.
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Old 07-28-2016, 06:34 AM   #11
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

Interesting!

Loved this video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgEmbZk7YHw

Of course that chapter is never read at their services....

Last edited by Loading....; 07-28-2016 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:16 AM   #12
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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Interesting!

Loved this video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgEmbZk7YHw

Of course that chapter is never read at their services....
Hi Loading:

You didn't answer the questions which makes me think that you really had no interest in knowing who Jews think Isaiah 53 is referring to. But for others reading this thread who are curious, let's work through these questions.

1. Isaiah refers to the servant as Jacob and/or Israel. Do you know what these two names stand for?

Answer: In The Old Testament these names are used in many places to refer to the Jewish people. So the servant is the Jewish people.

2. Are you aware that the last part of the book of Isaiah is known as the "Four Servant Songs" and that Isaiah 53 is part of the "Fourth Servant Song?"

Answer: This one answers itself.

3. Do you know what these four servant songs are about?

Answer: My understanding, and I'm no where close to an expert on this stuff, is that the "Four Servant Songs" are sort of a timeline for the Jewish people. For instance, King Cyrus is mentioned early on and the last song contains End of Days Prophesies (that is things which have not yet happened).

4. Do you know who is speaking in Isaiah 53? (Yes Isaiah wrote the words but someone else is speaking.)

Answer: The kings of the nations during the End of Days.

5. And do you know what the speaker's words in Isaiah 53 mean?

Answer: The kings of the nations are saying that they can't believe what they now see. For the Jewish people, who have suffered so much during their long history, had it right all along.

Now Loading, there's an incredible fascinating thing about this. If I was someone like you, and someone else came to me and wanted to know about Christianity, the first thing I would show them would be Isaiah 53.

But if I was a Jewish scholar and someone came to me with similar questions, the first thing I would show them is Isaiah 53 and step them through the questions above.

So here you have a specific spot in The Old Testament which some knowledgeable people, such as yourself, can use to show that Jesus is the savior and which other knowledgeable people can use to show just the opposite.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 07-29-2016, 10:24 AM   #13
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Loading:

You didn't answer the questions which makes me think that you really had no interest in knowing who Jews think Isaiah 53 is referring to. But for others reading this thread who are curious, let's work through these questions.

1. Isaiah refers to the servant as Jacob and/or Israel. Do you know what these two names stand for?

Answer: In The Old Testament these names are used in many places to refer to the Jewish people. So the servant is the Jewish people.

2. Are you aware that the last part of the book of Isaiah is known as the "Four Servant Songs" and that Isaiah 53 is part of the "Fourth Servant Song?"

Answer: This one answers itself.

3. Do you know what these four servant songs are about?

Answer: My understanding, and I'm no where close to an expert on this stuff, is that the "Four Servant Songs" are sort of a timeline for the Jewish people. For instance, King Cyrus is mentioned early on and the last song contains End of Days Prophesies (that is things which have not yet happened).

4. Do you know who is speaking in Isaiah 53? (Yes Isaiah wrote the words but someone else is speaking.)

Answer: The kings of the nations during the End of Days.

5. And do you know what the speaker's words in Isaiah 53 mean?

Answer: The kings of the nations are saying that they can't believe what they now see. For the Jewish people, who have suffered so much during their long history, had it right all along.

Now Loading, there's an incredible fascinating thing about this. If I was someone like you, and someone else came to me and wanted to know about Christianity, the first thing I would show them would be Isaiah 53.

But if I was a Jewish scholar and someone came to me with similar questions, the first thing I would show them is Isaiah 53 and step them through the questions above.

So here you have a specific spot in The Old Testament which some knowledgeable people, such as yourself, can use to show that Jesus is the savior and which other knowledgeable people can use to show just the opposite.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason,

I'm not Jewish, and I'm guessing that you are? It seems from cursory reading that Jews are divided on the issue (if Isaiah 53 is messianic).

In 53:4 is says "he bore our sickness and our pains." Who is the "our" there? Israel can't be both the subject and object of the passage there?

I'm interested in your thoughts?

http://www.torahclass.com/archived-a...y-rabbi-baruch
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:31 PM   #14
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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Mason,

I'm not Jewish, and I'm guessing that you are? It seems from cursory reading that Jews are divided on the issue (if Isaiah 53 is messianic).

In 53:4 is says "he bore our sickness and our pains." Who is the "our" there? Israel can't be both the subject and object of the passage there?

I'm interested in your thoughts?

http://www.torahclass.com/archived-a...y-rabbi-baruch
Hi festering:

And here's a site that will tell you just the opposite:

https://outreachjudaism.org/lets-get...#audioplaylist

As you can see, there are lots of topics here in addition to Isaiah 53 and I know for a fact that many evangelical fundamentalist Christians are not happy with much of the material here. And if you're really open minded you should listen to some of it, and that includes you as well Loading.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:04 AM   #15
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

Mason,

I used to believe that this verse spoke of the "christian" messiah as well, but after reading your posts and links, i now am convinced otherwise. Thank you for the posts.
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:51 AM   #16
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

In the Christian exegesis a google search will reveal multiple (many) references to the Christ as Messiah as per each particular theological look. One site had hundreds and another up beyond 300+.

Judaism also has references to the Messiah which can be googled .

?????? wat ? OP, wat ?
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:29 PM   #17
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

Mason, when was Isreal "pierced for our trangressions?" When were we "healed by their wounds?" When did they "pour out their soul unto death?" I mean come on.

I appreciate your thoughtful replies, but I rest my case.

Really it's like trying to explain color to a blind person, which is in fact the case because "the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

"For a selfish man does not receive spiritual things, for they are madness to him, and he is not able to know, for they are known by The Spirit."

Last edited by Loading....; 07-30-2016 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:31 PM   #18
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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In 53:4 is says "he bore our sickness and our pains." Who is the "our" there? Israel can't be both the subject and object of the passage there?
Quoted for truth. Even a carnally minded atheist should be able to spot this fallacy.
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:35 PM   #19
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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Mason, was Isreal "pierced for our trangressions?" Are we "healed by their wounds?" Did they "pour out their soul unto death?" I mean come on.

I appreciate your thoughtful replies, but I rest my case.

Really it's like trying to explain color to a blind person, which is in fact the case because "the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

"For a selfish man does not receive spiritual things, for they are madness to him, and he is not able to know, for they are known by The Spirit."
I think it's clear from this post that you had no interest in in knowing "Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?" I answered your question but you don't seem interested in the answer.

MM
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Old 07-31-2016, 12:54 AM   #20
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

I was genuinely interested, although I could slightly recall hearing something along the lines of it referring to Israel before. Thanks for the clarification, and yes I do admit the OP had premise (I think that's the right term)

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Old 07-31-2016, 02:07 AM   #21
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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I was genuinely interested, although I could slightly recall hearing something along the lines of it referring to Israel before. Thanks for the clarification, and yes I do admit the OP had premise (I think that's the right term)
It's a lot more than just referring to Israel. It's also the idea that in the End of Days everyone in the world will realize that the Jews are the ones who got it right.

Mason
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:45 AM   #22
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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He had no form of majesty, but was despised and rejected by men and we esteemed him not. He was PIERCED for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.

He "poured out his soul to DEATH" and "bore the sins of many."

Does this not sound like a suffering Messiah to you?

Don't wait till he comes in his full glory to believe...
What's it like being so sure of your superiority and salvation?
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Old 08-02-2016, 06:11 PM   #23
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

It's a free gift of God that has nothing to do with my own superiority but Christ's majesty.
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Old 08-02-2016, 07:31 PM   #24
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

[x] Asks what Jews believe about something
[x] Jews tell him what they believe about it
[ ] Comprehends that what they told him they believe is, in fact, what they believe
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Old 08-03-2016, 06:49 PM   #25
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Re: Jews, who do you think Isaiah 53 is referring to?

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It's a free gift of God that has nothing to do with my own superiority but Christ's majesty.
Say hi to your imaginary friend for me
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