All we know about it is what the bible says.

Atheists like to assume from their knowledge of the world today. Because we see a lot of good around us doesn't mean those early people were good or as much like us as atheists credit them with.

We really don't have the knowledge to judge God as evil. Atheists that do that are doing it off an assumption from a false comparison.

Since we wouldn't even know about the deaths if the bible hadn't recorded them then why can't we accept it when God says the people of that time were evil to a degree we probably can't fully comprehend today.

Read Deut. 6. It says the thinking of everyone in the world was evil except for Noah.

God can be managing the families of the human race. Look at how the bible traces out Shem, Japheth and Ham. But those lines have crisscrossed now.

You said God's ideas withstand the test of time. I demonstrated that he had failed at least twice to have his ideas withstand the test of time. I wasn't making any statement as to his "evilness" for doing what he did.

It's commonly believed by some that God is outside of time in charge of all human time.

The Torah (God's revealed thoughts) wasn't given before the Flood.

The very first two people created were instructed by God personally and failed.

So? God didn't doom them to eternal failure. He provides a way of success (redemption) through Jesus Christ.

By your own free will you decide whether to follow his successful example or not.

Of course, your decision depends alot on your own understanding and how good the teaching you received was and whether or not your mind likes to entertain contradictory ideas.

Didn't God give us Jesus Christ so we could see a clear example of the right things in life and not get tripped up by the contradictions and complexities?

None of this is relevant to what I said. You stated God's ideas stand the test of time. I pointed out that God had to start over twice.

Even the current incarnation via salvation from Jesus is not a universal success. Secularism is spreading rapidly in Europe and it's only a matter of time before it catches on here. It appears to me God will have to destroy and begin all over again.

God didn't have to do anything. He can have a grand scheme and we only know the parts He thinks it's relevant for us to know about at a certain time in history.

As for the spread of secularism that's to be expected it's not like the Great Apostasy (the great falling away) isn't mentioned in the NT. People have been expecting it for centuries.

There's no reason to act like a lemming and follow the secularists because they're gaining in the West. They're not gaining in other parts of the world.

As for the so-called destruction of the world....There's multiple interpretations on that. Why even take that on until you've examined Jesus Christ's claims?

If I were you I'd read Creations Jubilee by Dr. Stephen E. Jones because he's one of the few scholars I've come across who explains the religious disparities across the world in a theological way that makes sense. Or else spend time on Auburn University's universalism articles or read becomingone.org or the Tentmaker site.

your avatar skeevs me the hell out. what is it?!?!?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Samedi

Looks like the fella from Live and Let Die iirc

Yeah, and he might also have no idea what he's doing.

There's no reason to act like a lemming and follow the Christians because they're the largest religion in the world.

I can't speak for other agnostics/atheists, but I arrived at my present state after much spiritual searching, religious study, prayer and involvement with church groups. It had nothing to do with following a trend.. When I searched, there was simply no God there.

I have, quite extensively. If I were a Christian, I would likely be an annhilationist.

I've read quite a bit on universalism and their theological and scriptural arguments. As I've stated before (and provided arguments against), I don't find the universalist position compelling or convincing. I think the position requires significant logical leaps and misinterpretation of scripture and an abandonment of the original intent of the authors.

No.

Plausible for those who neither obey Hashem nor trust in Yeshua HaMashiach.

I never listen to Joe Hachem so I guess I'm safe?

FYP.
This way she might listen to you

Isn't the aim of the bible spiritual growth?

Maybe some religious leaders outstrip others in spiritual growth.

I think universalism is a doctrine that outstrips eternal hell and torment doctrine by miles and it also reveals the inconsistencies of eternal hell doctrine.

Mercy is higher than judgment in God's mind.

When you're talking about theology then you're talking about God's mind. It's a shame so many people want to limit God's mercy off of literal interpretations of the bible.

If you read Dr. Jones he explains how the literalists (the young priests) subverted the doctrine of universal reconciliation in the Catholic Church. Universal Reconciliation is the doctrine that all men are saved already.

Jesus Christ said:

New International Version (©1984)
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

New Living Translation (©2007)
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

English Standard Version (©2001)
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

International Standard Version (©2008)
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people toward me."

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

American King James Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

American Standard Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Darby Bible Translation
and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.

English Revised Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Webster's Bible Translation
And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."

World English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Young's Literal Translation
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'





Do you see the word all believers above or just all men/all people?

Who's word are you going to take on this? Men's interpretations or Jesus Christ's?

You can research more verses on your own. There's no lock on the bible.

Silly, did you really think the good Lord would fail any man? Failing and imperfection is all on men's part.

As for God, He is perfect and always has been.

Don't you post numerous links to articles and books that are men's interpretations of the bible when challenged on various parts of it?

I do.

But I don't think anyone reads any of them.

How do you think you broaden opinions if you aren't exposed to a lot of them?

You have to think about things from different angles to broaden your mind.

Atheists interpret the bible, particularly, the OT very narrowly and very negativistically usually from their own mistaken modern mindset.

Like I've said before. You won't find an anthropologist going into a Stone Age village and telling them how to be moral based on their modern Western upbringing.

So why do atheists do that when interpreting the bible? Why don't they ever exhibit patience and let God explain it to them or seek help from a real source of expertise like a concordance or a biblical commentary?

But given the times you quote from them, link to them etc it's clear that you are looking to men's interpretations to help you perform the mental gymnastics required to believe that the god of the OT isn't a nasty, vindicative character. Or am i wrong here?

Mental gymnastics?

It's called fairness.

Are you going to attend a trial, not pursuing additional info and only hearing one side?

Are you familiar with what jurors do? They recess and share info and consult with each other.

God committed a crime lulz

I used an analogy to explain why I'm not committing mental gymnastics.

Atheists are the ones who've done the contorted thinking.

They don't even agree with the historical nature of God as upheld by His people for thousands of years.

If an atheist would just say I don't believe in God and be done with it then I'd believe he's an atheist.

All this arguing just implies to me that they are scared about their decision so they keep returning to consider it and argue over it.

If a decision is made and final then there's no need to keep revisiting it, is there?

And don't give me a political reason for it. A lot of atheists on here have denied they are militant atheists.

Guess who said this today:

"I fall down many times a year, a month & a day but GOD is there to pick me up every time!! GOD loves us no matter what! #Godisgood"

It sounds like God's playing you on the hook.

Jesus Christ said to his disciple: "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Matt. 4:19)

Yes I've sat on a jury, in fact it was only 4 months ago. Have you, or are you just going by what you've seen on tv? It's not all a happy clappy info sharing and consultation exercise. It involves the sort of dynamics we see whenever you throw a group of strangers together. I could go into more detail but I don't see the relevance of doing a social study here.

As for the trial, if god's defence is the OT then he's in big trouble.