I would say less like a war zone, more like "a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."

Your scenario is not analogous. The people most directly involved were mostly already religious, credulous towards the supernatural, poorly educated and, most significantly, not the authors of the Bible.

On the other hand, the militant atheists you describe are largely not religious, highly educated in a scientific worldview, skeptical towards the supernatural and still alive (giving us the opportunity to actually talk to them and evaluate the basis of their conversion).

Being an atheist, I don't follow God. Does this mean I'm living a life of pure evil? If not, then, once again, what is a "life of pure evil"?

Clearly you're living a life of pure evil.

And if you're already living a life of pure evil, well, you may as well put baby on the menu. I have some great recipes.

Def. interested! PM ME!!!

+1 for good mods. What kind of sauces do you like to use?

I still have to read the rest of the thread.

There are many people who would swear that Sai Baba has performed miracles. Others would call him a fraud. Sound familiar? My point is not that the two are exactly the same, but rather that there are many who believe he has done extraordinary acts. Our technology and sophistication in modern times allows us to document it extensively and ferret out his tricks. Now convert that into the year 30 or so. We don't have the technology that makes it easy to spot the fraud. Then add in the weakness in the documentary record (I know you have opinions on it, but you have to admit that the record is significantly less than is desirable), and I think you begin to see my point. Now, I'm not saying Jesus was a fraud, he may never had made any of the claims that future authors made about him.
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Hell, don't look at Sai Baba, take Uri Geller (just search for him on You Tube). He had many many many people fooled as well, until James Randi exposed him on the tonight show.

The fact is, any description of miracles must be taken with a very high degree of skepticism. It is unfortunate that the documentary record for Jesus is so poor - but we shouldn't just fill in the blanks with belief. Rather, we must acknowledge that if evidence isn't reliable - no matter what the cause - then we must withhold belief.

Now, there's something else. There is a professor who, as I understand it from a podcast, is in the process of writing a book where she will document that basically the primary teachings of Jesus, as set out in the NT, appear in older works of other religions. Obviously the book is not out yet, but I am pretty interested in reading it and will report here when it comes out (I'll be looking out for it).

I'm sure I'll have more for this thread...

Do you have any idea how silly this sounds to me, and people like me? It would be like if I told you about how Jack went up the beanstalk, and talked like it was history.

You really believe in Noah? Really?

lol

actually laughed out loud.

We can't "force you to become a Deist". You have to change your mind on your own. When you're ready to question such concepts as an afterlife where most people are tortured for eternity for finite crimes/having natural faith resulting in other religious beliefs, then maybe you will have a shot at being a Deist. But if you keep insisting that God is justified in whatever he does and he's really all-loving and all-just, despite what he does to most people, then you will remain a Christian. It's your responsibility to choose to see God for what he is (a cruel lie), not ours to force you to see.

Dear Jibninjas,

Below I have summarized some arguments for the existence of a God and some for the biblical God. Which of these are convincing to you? Do you have others?

Kind regards,

Tao

Archeological arguments
1. physical evidence of miracles and other things depicted in the bible

Literary historical arguments
1. literary historical evidence of Jesus
2. literary historical evidence of the miracles of Jesus
3. literary historical evidence of the miracles prior to and after Jesus
4. literary historical evidence for the miraculous start of the early church

Personal arguments
1. revelation
2. personal miracles
3. belief in authenticity of the bible
4. because it feels right
5. because it seems real

Logical arguments
1. creation/creator
2. morality

Natural sciences arguments
1. cosmological
2. big bang/creation
3. ID

Where's your evidence he isn't?

On his birth certificate.

You really think the creator of the universe would choose to communicate his existence to us in the same manner as all false gods?

Really?

REALLY?

Also, do you know anyone who resents their parents because they didn't ditch them at birth, leave them a note telling them who they are, and never show their face again? You use this argument often and I find it extremely weak to say the least.

Lastly, for now, I find the argument rize put forth about the water pretty compelling. Why don't you? He said nothing about everything being perfect as you alluded to. The single most important resource to our survival is laughably scarce. Why?

One more thing, for now, it's pretty hard to convince someone like yourself to become a deist when you choose to twist the bible around in order to believe atheists can get into heaven. According to what the bible actually says, well over half the world is going to hell. If you were actually honest with what the bible says about this you might be a deist already. Why else would you twist it so badly?

It's falsified. He created puppies then traveled forward in time for the sole purpose of berating you.

Counterexample.

So jib, you a deist now?

I still see good in this world. I do not look out and see that evil has won. There are many good people, unfortunately there seems to be more bad than good people.

Looking at the world I don't see evil every where, I see people doing evil things. If everyone made the right decisions (putting others ahead of themselves) this world would be fairly decent. Just sad that so few are willing to make that commitment.

You do understand that this is so with or without a personal god, right?

I know you believe that. But I'm obviously much more cynical.

I disagree, it is very analogous. First century Jews were more unlikely to do what they did than most atheists now.

Judaism to a first century Jew was not like Christianity is to many American Christians. This was their life. Everything they did revolved around their religion. What the earliest christians believed was diametrically apposed to their previous beliefs. The idea that God would become man was blasphemous. To worship Jesus like they worshiped God was an offense punishable by death. Jesus also did not fit what the Jews believed the Messiah would be. The Messiah was supposed to come and crush the oppressors (the Romans), and bring the Jewish people back into power.

This is just to name a couple things. First Century Jews were less likely to turn from their beliefs then many militant atheists today.

I know, I was actually just going to write "Well, I know we just disagree here", but then I didn't. don't remember why.

For sure.

But if a revealed religion cannot account for the world the way that it appears, then imo it is a strike against it. One of the reasons that I would never be able to accept Islam or Calvinism. Both teach that God is in control of all things, and nothing happens apart from his will.

But my point for posting what I did was to show that the "problem of evil" is accounted for in biblical theology. So arguing that bad stuff happens, therefore the biblical God does not exist, does not carry much weight with me.

OH,

Just compare these other works to the bible on historical grounds. You are the one going against historical scholars, not me.

Which is almost certainly a product of the sheer luck involved with having been born during this time period and in a developed country, and not having been say, one of the jews baking in a nazi oven.

Of course you can still see good in the world when you're drinking a beer talking to people through your computer and not one of the millions of people starving to death in a desert.

I don't think you truly have the capacity to care for other people in terrible situations like that. And your willingness to attempt to justify the existence of those situations on god's behalf over and over again proves that.