Yes, that is basically it. You're not Muslim so it doesn't really affect you, nothing to worry about.

Allah guides who He wants to guide, but people are still responsible for their own choices. People who commit crimes will be punished in the afterlife whether they are Muslim or not. Being Muslim doesn't make you immune to justice, and being a disbeliever won't save you from it either.

As long as I don't know about their sins and they keep it away from the general public, I really couldn't care less.

Muhammad's (saws). His whole purpose of being assigned as the Messenger was to explain Quran (that is written in the Quran itself, if you would like to look it up yourself).

Allah is in control of who is guided and who is not. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you, it's between you and your Creator. My only requirement as a Muslim is to spread the information, not convert anyone. Since I've already done that, there is no reason or islamic requirement for me to keep debating you. I'm replying out of courtesy and nothing more. Understand my position better?

I haven't expressed my personal opinions, aside from my reply to neeel just now about gays. I'm only repeating what the religion teaches. And unlike thekid, I follow the texts to the letter, I don't insert my own warped interpretations to pass the religion off as some pacifistic paradise.

If you want my personal opinion, I think thekid has a few screws loose and shouldn't be allowed on the internet. As a Muslim, I should keep my rude opinions to myself because it might hurt somebody.

You say "negate", we consider it proper manners. We cannot purposely say anything that we know might offend someone or injure them, as this is counted as a sin against us. The only time we can disregard this is if we are telling the truth (backed up by proof). The Prophet(saw) ordered us to remain quiet unless we have something useful to say, and to say the truth even if people find it distasteful.

That is an exaggeration to say the least. As I said before, as long as non-muslims are peaceful and don't force their views, values or teachings onto Muslims, we have no problem with them. Even living in and sharing the same community poses no problem. The Muslims in my city get along just fine. In fact, the masjid is across the street from a church and they often interact with each other.

This is your opinion. I suggest you visit some Muslim countries and see how we live. It's much different than the picture you are painting here. It seems like your views are mirroring the media sensationalism.

It's ironic because of the implication. It's not a gain for me, since I do that quite often. My family are diehard non-muslims and I am constantly having to defend myself, when I'd rather just relax. To be honest, I really have no interest in debates anymore. I only came here to point out the fallacy in thekid's arguments.

Learning about christianity and judaism is part of Islam and we're taught about their core beliefs, although we do not go into detail. We save those things for when they are older and more strengthened in the deen (religion) before we introduce them to anything that would confuse them.

Because I've already been there and done that. I have not come across anything to cause me to question. My only goal now is to study Islam in depth and learn as much as I can about it.

I would think that is your prerogative. You are the one that has to face Allah for it, not me. If I were closed-minded, I never would have been interested in Islam in the first place

If you really want to understand my view, then understand: A devout Muslim views Allah as the Most Knowledgable Owner of everyone and the Quran as the ultimate truth. He/she needs nothing else and views everything else as inferior. They pity and pray for others who are still struggling for the truth in life. Outside opinions and critiques really mean nothing to us. Philosophy in particular we find a waste of time, as Allah tells us religion is easy, straightforward and uncomplicated; and so is life in general. From the most educated to the most ignorant, all can do it "right".

Salam

And so the hamster wheel spins on. It does affect me, because you claim divine right to an Islamic state with a legal system I can't support with claims of power I can't tolerate and spread a teaching I can't accept.

And to make the absurdity complete, the logic you use to derive those teaching is flawed. You don't extend the rights of understanding to anyone else. You claim it for yourself, and then forbid "your brothers and sisters" the option of disagreement.

Worry is too mild.

I claim nothing except what is in Quran. Whoever disagrees with Quran stops being a Muslim. So they'd no longer be my brothers and sisters if they disagreed with the words of Allah. No problem there.

I'm not the pope, I don't have "divine right" to do anything, but I am flattered that you think so highly of me.

I am telling you what the Quran says. I won't sugarcoat it the way thekid does. If you don't like it, that is your choice, go ahead and dislike it. You can do anything you like, but I hope you don't think that attacking my beliefs is somehow going to magically make me an atheist. There are over a billion of us and it's part of our religion to have as many children as possible. We aren't going away, so you're going to have to learn to tolerate Muslims. If you don't, it's your loss, since we are basically pretty nice people.

My logic is this : Allah says it, I believe it. End of story.

I think so, although I think you sidestepped some of my questions.

My impression is that you have completely closed your mind to all possibilities except those allowed by one specific belief system, you refuse the possibility that anything outside of that system could be of value and so you refuse to debate anyone who does question that system, you dare not question the truth of that system (for fear of the punishments awarded by that system for daring to disagree), and worse (IMO) you consider that an acceptable attitude.

I guess our conversation is over. I thank you for your replies and I'll make one personal comment, that I consider it a great shame that there are so many people who are completely unwilling to consider the possibility that they might be wrong and who work from such a limited paradigm. There are many claims about how Islam has contributed toward improving our understanding of what we observe and to the sum of our knowledge but what I suggest is that Islam has only made discoveries, and only supports the acquisition of knowledge where that knowledge will support what Islam already claims as the truth, and suppresses and ignores any knowledge that contradicts Islamic claims. This is a terribly blinkered and limited approach IMO, one that I don't see any advantage of, and I strongly oppose it as I would in whatever context it occurs.

Quite.

Have to at least grant credit to Ummah.com user for sticking with his convictions and engaging in a far more respectable way than thekid345.

So, its not true what other muslims say, that allah calls you to islam, and sometimes even pushes you away from islam? Are you saying that even if god pushes you away, you can still choose to follow islam?

So you wouldnt call for punishments( imprisonment, etc) for homosexuality? If you, or someone else, inadvertently found out about someone being homosexual?

You didnt answer my question. Are you saying that there is only one way to read the quran? that there are no passages with contested meaning? that there are no sects of islam that say "that means X" and others that say " no, that means Y"?


You state later

.

So there are no passages anywhere, where you have a different interpretation of meaning from someone else?

My brother is a muslim, and an arabic scholar, who has deeply studied the quran. He acknowledges that there are different ways of interpreting the texts.

further , you posted a link to a tafsir, which is defined as an exegisis ( critical explanation or interpretation) of the text. If there is no dispute as to what the text says, why would you need a tafsir. It would be clear to everyone what it meant. Are there different tafsirs that say different things?

No, you are not telling me what the Quran says. You are recounting to me your understanding of what the Quran says. According to your own religion the Quran is perfect, man is not.

Thus I am certainly not praising you when I am saying you claim divine right. I'll allow you to figure out the implications of that on your own, but I'm sure any judgment on my part is fairly mild compared to the one your religion offers to people who elevate themselves to be Allah's equals.

According to my logic you're a loon and any legal state you seek to raise is tainted by your illusions of grandeur. The people you call your "brothers" and "sisters" I call your unfortunate victims.

Hopefully you're just some RGT-poster's level and troll. Regardless, you're too close to the real thing to ignore.

I judge convictions on an individual basis and sticking to them isn't necessarily worthy of respect, particularly if your conviction is that you shouldn't engage with anyone who disagrees with you because you arbitrarily reject the idea that what they know or think might be of value to you. I can think of several historical figures who stuck to their convictions and I'm pretty certain you wouldn't praise them for it. As for being 'respectable', that should be the norm.

I agree with all of this. The way in which children were referenced "our religion says to have as many as possible, so deal with it" is disturbing and gives one the impression of children basically being equated with commodities.

Perhaps my wording is poor. I merely state that at least Ummar.com guy is opening up about his views as he sees them [rather than the blatantly intellectually dishonest thekid345 approach of ad hominems and "look over there!"]. Not really saying much i agree.

Yeah sorry, didn't mean to jump on you like that. Jeez, I have no idea what's going on with thekid. Maybe Umma guy hit the nail on the head.

Thinking further -- isn't there a rule against gambling [and does this apply to posting in a gambling forum?]. This would make thekid going to ummar.com for upvotes in his poll on 2+2 more hilarious than it already is.

Yes, I am, regardless of your distaste for my words.

I do not know what an RGT is, you you might want to explain that.

I know, I was being sarcastic (which I thought was obvious). You seem like a volatile person.

It seems you only want to attack and it really doesn't make a difference how I reply.

If you really do only want to attack, feel free to speak to yourself and your buddies, because I have nothing to say other than what I have said.

Frankly, I'm not sure what it is that you would like me to say. If you're waiting for me to agree with you, then just keep on waiting.


I would like to point out that Islam does not limit scientific knowledge, so the comparison you are making is invalid. We are limited to accepting only one religious authority - Allah - but we are not limited in seeking secular knowledge and are actually encouraged to do so. It's a commandment in the Quran to seek knowledge and we are often told that those without knowledge are not the same as those with knowledge. I could go on about the Islamic golden age, but I'm sure you already know about it, since you seem educated.

About your rejection of my lifestyle; That is your choice. I'm happy with the choices I've made and I'm satisfied with what Allah has allowed and disallowed for His followers. If I wanted something else, I would do it, but I don't; as a true Muslim doesn't want anything other than what Allah has allowed for him.

No, that is not what I am saying or what I said. It is not even what I implied. So either you are misunderstanding, or purposely trying to start an argument. I'll assume the former. Study the concept of Qadr for clarity on the issue. I won't go in circles about such a basic concept as free will.

No, because in Islam it is illegal to spy into someone's home (the punishment is hitting a voyeur in the eye), and it is illegal to accuse anyone of a lesser crime without four witnesses. You would need four people to actually view the fornication taking place, and those four people themselves must be known to have an honest reputation. Anyone with a history of lying on the stand or bribery is permanently barred from testimony.

In practice, it is incredibly difficult to convict anyone of fornication in Islam (regardless of the partner's gender). Unless they are making out with a dude in public, there isn't much you can do against gays.

Yes, with your eyes. Unless you know how to read braille.

That is what the Prophet(saws) was sent to explain. He has explained every single ayah (verse) in detail. The Quran is not like the bible in that anyone can pick it up and create their own exegesis. The Tafsir (exegesis) of Quran is only done by following the narratives of the Prophet(saws). Anyone who goes against his narratives is rejected as a heretic, according to mainstream Islam.
Muslims do not "make up" their own "meanings". Personal opinion is irrelevant in Islam. How many times do I have to state this? We have educated Islamic scholars who have spent their entire lives studying Quran and Ahadith and Islamic history; and it is a severe crime to misrepresent the religion or say anything incorrect about it (the first to be punished on the Day of Judgment are the scholars who misled people). They only make tafsir based on the Ahadith of the Prophet(saws), not their own opinions or guesswork.

They fear misleading people so much they often put a disclaimer before their works saying that if they have made a mistake or said anything against the Quran or the Prophet(saw) to disregard their instructions and follow the Quran or Ahadith in that matter.

No offense to your brother, may Allah preserve him and grant him success in this life and the next, but a scholar in language is no comparison or equal to a scholar in Quran and Hadith. Anyone can be a scholar in any language they like. That does not automatically make them a scholar of religion no more than getting a degree in astrophysics would.

We follow the rules of Fiqh and Aqida, not personal opinions. Islam is not christianity, it is strict and does not accept tampering (bid`ah).



You and tame seem quite aggressive. I'm really not interested in getting ganged up on. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. I am not required to justify myself or Islam to you, and Islam will go on whether you agree with it or not.

As I said, I am here to refute thekid and that is all. While I am trying to remain patient, I do not appreciate the foul attitude you are putting forth. I accept that you're not Muslim and not required to practice proper etiquette, but I also reserve the right to refuse to discuss anything with anyone who cannot speak respectfully towards me.

Arguing on an internet poker forum does absolutely nothing beneficial for the world, other than giving a sense of superiority for the one person who gets the last word. So I'll let you have it. Congrats.

Salam

Yes, which is probably why nobody from ummah joined.

Just to let everyone know - GMC is not a regular poster on ummah. He has not posted since last year (dec), so I have no idea how thekid got him to join this forum.

If the answer does not include beatings or imprisonment, then Ummah.com user is not representing her/his own trolling viewpoints.

We have this person, Ummah.com user going on and on w/o providing any proof of who they are. There is no proof whatsoever that this poster is even from Ummah(he/she acts more along the line of a coward much like the ISIS folks who hide behind masks) Besides, this poster, Ummah.com user actually agrees with some of the points made by wrooxz, a poster who is very, very critical of Islam. This makes no sense.

regardless of your views of myself Neel, these are just simple facts to keep in mind, again we have no clue who ummah.com user is.

Ummah.com user continues to use the words "we" when describing Muslims, this is a complete fallacy as Ummah.com user is simply inputting his/her views which goes against the true values of the Quran.

It would be interesting to see what a poster like Sharad, a Shia Muslim who seems to know much more about the true mesage of the Quran then the incoherent message that Ummah.com user(there is no proof this poster is even a Muslim) suggests.

The interaction between kid and umar.com guy has demonstrated the earlier presented problem of subjectivity when it comes to interpretation and implementation of doctrine.

Subjectivity with regards to religious texts and doctrine is no more problematic than subjectivity with regards to the US Bill of Rights.

It might be more appropriate to say that the interaction we're watching would be akin to Republicans vs. Democrats. I'll let you decide who the Republicans are.

Mr Ummah - dont you feel by looking at the history of mankind and the world around us, that the story of man that the Koran gives us is inaccurate?

It pretty obvious there were never just two human beings on this planet.

I just wanted to clarify that I have no personal issues with Ummah.com user. I do happen to disagree with some of his/her views, for example, Ummah.com user extreme statements on Shia Muslims which I consider to be categorically false.

ok. I am guessing that this standard is not held to by most muslims?


so, for every single verse, or line, in the quran( which was written by mohammed, and dictated to him by god) , there is also a detailed explanation of exactly what that line or verse means, with absolutely no room for interpretation or exegesis?



I also mentioned that he had studied the quran deeply, but ok.


Apologies if I am coming across aggressive. It is something I need to work on.

What foul attitude?

The facts are I had a green(positive) rating for at least a few weeks on ummah, not that I care anything about that points scoring system or your views of my posting on Ummah. You seem to be stalking me.

Around the world we see 1.6-1.7 billion Muslims. It doesn't matter that you or others may consider Shia Muslims to be or a grade below what you view as a Muslim, or Othroxdox Muslim.

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/t...im-population/



Shias are a denomination of Islam, they are Muslims,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Shia

Ummah.com user in any event your an example(or whoever you are impersonating as you have yet to provide simple proof of who you are) of a American/British Muslim who follows the likes of Anjem Chodray, a guy who probably wouldn't even be respected in a place like Yemen. Ummah.com user I have seen a fringe element of Muslims in the USA/Britain who do harbor the views of yourself along with Anjem Chodray. These views are representative of a tiny portion of American/British Muslims and go against the views of the massive majority of Muslims around the world. Even folks in Pakistan highly disagree with folks like Ummah.com user, in fact folks in Pakistan watch gay porn more then any other nation in the world,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3437529.html

Yes, yes, everyone is troll when they disagree with you. Or a terrorist. Or an extremist. Or supporting terrorists. Or a supremacist. No one who disagrees with you could possibly be sane. How dare we question you? Shame on us.

I would like a copy of your state ID and driver's license please. You can send it to my pm box. Actually a copy of your passport too, just to make sure. A thumb print and eye scan wouldn't hurt, either. And a birth certificate. And a notified letter from your eldest parent. With maiden name.

Nice try in trying to egg me into blurting out who I am in some useless attempt to regain my honor. I am not five years old, slandering my bravery (or lack thereof) will not provoke me.

I have no idea who you are, either. You have no idea if the people you are interacting with are male or female, hindu or wiccan, 14 or 56, disabled or healthy, straight or gay. You simply want my username because I refuse to give it. I find this incredibly creepy.

You have absolutely no idea what the Quran says.

You quote three verses or four and post them repetitively, ignoring the rest which go against your perverted world view. Especially the verses that condemn Christians as "most of them are perverted transgressors".

You still go along on your merry way, spreading hippy love and ignoring things that you dislike.

I'm pretty sure the atheists and anti-theists here know more about Quran than you do.

What "you consider" doesn't really matter as far as Islam is concerned. You seem to live ina hippy utopia where everybody gets along and shares love stories while sipping hot cocoa.

I am merely repeating the agree-upon consensus of the majority, orthodox Islam. If you think my statements are extreme, try reading some stories about what the Sahaba (ra) did to the shia (like burning them and beheading them).

The correct comparison is a deviated Christian vs a strict Muslim. That is quite literally what it is.

Democrats vs republicans would fit more with two Muslims debating, not a disbeliever and a believer. This man has no claim on the Quran (bill of rights) and obviously does not understand it.

This is more like a democrat/republican arguing with a socialist/communist/insertpoliticalpartyhere.
No I don't. When I look at the world around me, it only confirms in my heart what I have read in the Quran. Sorry.

Salam!

Come post itt on 2p2.

Ok.

Stop stalking me.

Muslims (and most people) do not take wikipedia as a matter of religious reference. You have a habit of doing this. Stop linking to wikipedia and news articles. Bring some actual textual evidence.

If you refer to the actual texts of mainstream Islam, the shia, along with other mushrikeen, are denounced as deviated and sometimes kuffar (depending on the sect).

There are very major differences between the shia and the Muslims. I guess this information will be useful to all of you. Most non-muslims think this is a political split because of western history books, but it has nothing to do with politics, it has to do with Aqida. They make claims that go against Tawhid (Oneness of Allah). These are only two reasons, but there are many more.

• First and most important being that many shia sects consider their imams divine and infallible (masoom), which is considered shirk (polytheism) in Islam. These sects are considered kuffar (disbelievers) by the religion. Those sects which do not believe in this are considered deviated, but still Muslim.
• Second, it is part of their religion to make takfir (declaring as apostates) and lanaat(cursing) those they call "nasibi", which include four of the most important people in Islam - Abu Bakr(ra), Aisha(ra), Uthman(ra) and Umar(ra). Anyone who makes takfir on a believer becomes a disbeliever himself, and anyone who makes takfir on any of those four mentioned automatically becomes an apostate, according to Islam.

Proof of Takfir (click)
Proof of cursing (click)

^ These are proof from their own books, not from wikipedia or a dailymail article.

This is the reason the shia and the "sunni" (as they call us) do not get along. It is the reason we will never get along and they will never be accepted in our communities. We do not accept any form of deviation in the religion, while they do. Maybe this information will help people understand the sectarian fights in pakistan a little better now.
---

And no, I have nothing to do with anjem choudhury, nor do I agree with or follow his extremist views. I am also not british.

It is very devious of you to try and portray anyone who disagrees with you as a liar or an extremist. You are either extremely immature, or mentally deficient. Either way, I pity you.

Salam

Ah yes, preaching the right of a legal state to execute a person for disagreeing on how to understand a 1400 year old book is the norm. However, challenging that person's claim that he is divinely granted the right to this reaction, is "volatile" and "an attack".

I'm sorry if you think this is me being volatile.