It's better to analyze the assumptions and the cultural ideas contained in the idea of the burka instead of looking at it merely at a civil rights issue. France may have laïcité but most of the English speaking world doesn't so wearing the burka is a right as much as pants.

Louie, be careful here you sound like Bibi Netanyaho, while Iran has a more traditionally conservative approach when it comes to fashion you are off base here. Most Iranian women would laugh at this notion that they are fashionably restricted in the sense that some would assume.

"After giving an interview to the BBC in which he asserted Iranians were not afforded the freedom to wear jeans under the hardline Islamic regime that rules that country, Netanyahu has been inundated with messages on social media from Iranians proving the contrary" -yahoo

"I think if the Iranian people had freedom, they would wear jeans, listen to Western music and have free elections," Netanyahu said, according to Reuters.- yahoo


Don't take offense from this post but I mean most Iranians would laugh at this recent notion of yours. BTW your link is from 2011, Iran now has a new president, Hassan Rouhani and the people elected him by a large margin.

http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/ir...min-netanyahu/ ----> Lets see what the actually citizens of Iran have to say

You must have zero reading comprehension. Please quote where I have so much as implied that Iranian women can't wear jeans or similar clothing.

Are you upset? I was responding to your post

How do you expect me to respond to that with something other then laughter?


Your recent comments were more then enough to merit my post,the point is Iranian women are into the latest fashion trends. Your post made it out as if they living in some type of nightmare. Try and be more reasonable in your posts in you want a similar reply

Maybe you should address it with some humility. Though I don't expect you to.

It is true that Iranians have not traditionally been burdened with hardcore Islamist norms regarding how to dress, this has traditionally been an Arab phenomena after all. However, those that actually know their history, as opposed to people like you who will merely google fervently after any tidbit that supports your intitial argument, will ofcourse know that it's not that many centuries ago that Iran was declared an Islamic republic, and this Islamic republic brought with a law that all women must wear the hjiab and cover their bodies.

There is no burka requirement, and Iranian women certainly enjoy their fashions. But your claim about "latest western fashion" is patently false. There is also certainly a mandatory dress code that can be bothersome during hot seasons. The linked article from Louis described how this law is now being enforced more strictly than it has been in many years.

Thus you were wrong and Luis Cyphre was right.


As said I don't expect any humility on your part in regards to this, and nor do I expect you to admit to an error. So no worries.

Should the Judenstern be understood as a piece of cloth or for what it symbolizes? Now obviously the burka is a far cry from the Judenstern (let's not go overboard with Godwin's law), but it is certainly in many cases an instrument of oppression.

You seem to be angling this solely as an argument against banning, which might be due to some part of the debate I missed. I don't think burka should be banned, banning clothing is a slippery slope.

However, I don't think any person should be forced to cover up their entire body against their will. I can't see this as an equivalent of a norm for underwear and that mandatory burka is justified because your neighbour might take moral insult - there is simply put too many practical differences.

As a psychologist I know very well that a requirement to cover up in your face and main extremities in this way is actually a ban on a very large part of human communication and interaction. Nomatter how you consider the communicative abilities related to your penis, it is nowhere near the magnitude of arms and face.

Nor do the requirement to wear a burka go alone. More often than not it is accompanied by views that women are not equal to men, that women are property, that women should remain silent and that women are not equal before the law.

Let's not be naive here.

I am frustrated with you. You never really address what is posted. Instead you reply with some random non-sequitur.

Let me spell it out for you:
I don't care if Iranian women can buy jeans. I care if they are brutally beaten if those jeans do not cover their ankles.
I don't care if some dead junkie pop star got paid a boatload of money to perform a concert in a Muslim country. I care if muslims think the death penalty for apostates is appropriate.


You don't know that.

Terribly annoying, at least make your non sequiturs relevant, right?

"In many cases..." This is where I'm advocating at attentiveness to cultural nuances. The argument here is reduced to the usage of burqas within specific cultural contexts. This requires a much more refined argument specific to those contexts.

I will repeat myself. I find the discussion up to this point as being generally too broad. The equation "burqa = oppression" was where the conversation was at when I entered. The conversation was not primarily about the cultural symbolism of the burqa (within specific contexts) or the political symbolism of the burqa (a signal of the general oppression of women). It was just about the burqa and how bad it is that someone might be forced to wear it.

It's only been after I've prodded that the conversation has started to move in that direction.

Well you are entitled to an opinion, after all it is the internet. I did use laughter in reply to one of Louis posts but I did not insult you or him by saying my argument is better then x.

-"Centuries ago"

Did you forget that Iran was ruled as a monarchy by a line a shahs for years prior to the 1979 revoultion? These shahs had many unislamic values which angered the society which in turn brought about the massively popular Islamic revoultion of 1979. So dont lecture me on history. Although you can continue to do so as it makes no difference to me.

If you are on the side of thinking that Iranian women are not into the latest fashin trends, then you have many iranian women who would disagree with you. Sure in some instances, Iranian women (mostly the older Iranian generation) dress conservativley by choice . While the Hijad is mandatory outdoors women are indeed into the latest western fashion trends.

Im sure even after this link I provide, you will still find some way to disagree even though you are presented with this visual evidence.

"In 2007, the government gave approval for "Muslim-style" fashion shows, and since then, growing numbers of young Iranian women such as Mina Davtalab have been lining up to take a "modest stroll" on the catwalk"

"The fashion shows have become accepted in Iran, so much so, that young women find it a lot easier nowadays to convince their parents that it is a good job opportunity"



http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_...AJ201206290019

this video details Irans fashion scene, and its from 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmQjqEHnLFg#t=129 I would say some of these Iranian women look just as good/better in their style of clothing then that of what we may see in France. keep in mind this video is from 2008 before the fashoin shows become more widely accepted.


edit: What am i doing talking about fashion, this feels weird I dont watch shows like Americas next top model and what not.

It doesn't matter. Louis Cyphre was right. There are Iranian laws regarding dresscode for women and the report he linked very correctly noted that these were being enforced more vigorously and with harsher punishments.

Thus you were wrong and he was right. That's pretty much it. All you're doing now is desperately moving the goalposts because you are too invested in your own opinion to backtrack.

That argument can go both ways, What about the USA's federal supermax prison's, not to mention G-bay just a few years back, the death penalty and (w/o having pro apostasy law/Sharia Law) the largest prison population in the world.

I'm not moving the goalposts, you made a false claim about the history of Iran. And again here you go with your opinion of "x argument is better then x.

to think you had the audacity to insult my knowledge of history when you are not even aware of the history of Iran. Of course by all means my friend, continue to post itt, but I wont be responding to you anymore. (mainly after reading your initial comments in post 106)

What about them?

I have certainly made no false claim about recent Iran history, I have merely stated that a few centuries ago it became an Islamic republic which instituted laws on the hijab - which is undoubtedly correct.

Let's quote myself for good measure:
The rest of this fantastic post that you talk about exists solely in your head, which for the record seems to be a worrying trend in your conversations in general.

But by all means, ignore me all you want. I respond to people regardless.

Kid,
When you hold an opinion that is in the minority by a large margin it is wise to consider you may be incorrect.

I have Muslim friends and I am aware of their great hospitality. When I was in Libya I was invited into the home of perfect strangers to share tea and biscuits. I enjoyed the friendliness of the locals and enjoyed streetside food.

My wife just had a baby and our midwife is a practicing Muslim who wears a headscarf. She comes to our house about once a week and we talk often.

I like the idea of travelling in the middle east as well and enjoying coffee and smoking shisha. However, even having said all that I still have realistic criticisms of Islam and Islamic states.

We can believe many Muslims are nice people and be friends with them and still be realistic about the problems associated with Islam. You are defending Islam to the point of denying facts about how the world actually is, it is not necessary.

I would first say to you congrats on the having a child and good luck. Do any of the (female) Muslims you know wear a Niqāb? How about the men, how traditional/modern do they dress? Over in Morocco things are pretty traditional for the most part.

I know the majority of the thread will disagree with me, after all 21/51 voters so far strongly disagree that Islam is a religion of peace. So I was fully prepared for the concern although I was a bit surprised by some of the initial comments in the 'how to prevent Islamophobia thread"

Its just this is the first time I have heard a compliment from you as opposed to your concerns. I would argue that I have not denied any facts and I am in fact trying to be realistic. Of course I have criticisms of the middle east as well.

no

Overall modern

It is not about agreeing or disagreeing. It is about having an understanding of the world that is grounded in reality.

I don't think anyone involved in these 2 threads would disagree that many moslems are hospitable. It is not news.

All I can say is keep trying to ground your views in reality and not an idealistic version of they way you want things to be.

There are many harmful aspects of Islam that we have covered in these 2 threads. As much as you may deny or gloss over these issues it doesn't change reality.

Not a big deal, but I think it is probably time to give up your childhood spelling of it and just use muslim

I wasn't intending to ignore you on these points. I think this has mostly been covered already in the last 2 pages. Cheers.

I would disagree, I have answered plenty of questions (mostly ones of controversy) itt and have taken high levels of criticism in return.

So what your thoughts on the Hijab? You don't have to answer of course

EDIT: Earlier I incorrectly stated some of my female family members wear a burqa, I meant to say Niqab. Some also wear just the Hijab while the guys dress quite traditionally. At the local masjid I have attended its a mix up between very traditional and modern types of clothing. We see these differences in fashion/culture in Muslim Majority countries around the world.

That's okay, I had forgotten I ever made this post

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/...and-hezbollah/

Widespread support for extremist terrorists groups and Bin Laden, stoning for adultery or leaving Islam, corporal punishment such as limbs hacked off for petty theft, and for suicide bombings as well . . . While of course this isn't uniform through the world and likely is related to local culture as in countries such as Turkey such is extremism is more rare, it isn't like the the religious texts aren't conductive to such a world view.

I just saw this before I was about to head out, so you lead off with 5 accusations,


- stoning for adultery or leaving Islam (highly debatable at worst) in fact the Quran allows one to leave Islam and preaches treating women with the utmost respect, see other Islam thread
-corporal punishment ( debatable at worst), see in the other Islam thread,
-suicide bombings (highy debatable at worst) see in the other Islam thread. Quran disallows this against innocents
-terrorists,(highly debatable at worst) Oh boy, Not the terrorists "can someone please think of the children" Quran Disallowes this agaisnt innocents

scary isn't it? it depends on how you view it and where you get your information but more important it comes down to understanding the facts of history from a full non bias scope.

We can compare the legal systems of certain countries nonstop. But what stands out to me in your argument is your accusation of equating Islam along with the Quran itself with human terrorism. I'm far from being anti american but the facts are the " Islamic terrorists" have killed far, far considerably far less since the inception of the Quran 1400 years ago then that of the US/German/Russian Military entire history

As for Al Qaeda, a group which was only made possible by the CIA/ISI... think of its formation this way.... The following is a timeline created by myself of what occurred in Afghanistan from 1980-2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan


Russia Invades Afghanistan to keep it communist (1980)--->US/Pakistan supports/trains the rebel Mujaheddin in Afghanistan including Bin Laden---> Communist Afghanistan is not defeated but basically destroyed in a long war in what is referred to as Russia's Vietnam----> Afghanistan starts to fall apart in the late 80s early 90s--->by 1992 Afghanistan completely falls apart and its communist president is brutally tortured/executed by the same rebels the US/Pakistan supported---->a tribal pact is formed and from 92-96 political power is shared in Afghanistan, eventually major disagreements occur and a civil war ensues----> 1996 The Taliban come to power, largely made of those same Mujaheddin from the 1980s ----->2001-----> Taliban are accused of harboring Osama Bin Laden, the same man who was supported by the ISI/CIA in the 1980s.

---> 2001 9/11 occurs and with it George W bush declares to all nations of the world "either you are with us or you are with the terrorists"

"The Reagan administration increased arming and funding of the mujaheddin as part of the Reagan Doctrine, thanks in large part to the efforts of Charlie Wilson and CIA officer Gust Avrakotos. Early reports estimated $6–20 billion but more recent reports suggest that up to $40 billion were provided by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia to Pakistan. This was in the forms of cash and weapons, which included over two thousand FIM-92 Stinger surface-to-air missiles"

-just in case anyone wondered where those weapons you see in Al Qaeda videos came from

While some tenants of Al Qaeda and its offshoots appear to be Islamic, blaming modern day "Islamic terrorism" on Islam or the Quran has its many flaws. IMO Islam (as outlined in the actual text of Quran and by M) is a religion of peace

"Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant. " [Quran 7:199]

"It may be that Allah will bring about love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity... Allah forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you out from your homes, that you be kind to them and deal equitably with them; surely, Allah loves those who are equitable." - Holy Qur'an, 60:8-9

"the taking of one innocent life is like taking all of Mankind... and the saving of one life is like saving all of Mankind" - Holy Qur'an, 5:33.

Happy thanksgiving