Well, gee-whiz, it looks like I was correct in 'changing' the words that were stated.

This is something I briefly addressed earlier, and something which I think does have some caveats (though I'm not sure if burqas would fall under them).

If the bolded were true then there would be no discussion. I wish it was true.

It is not that simple. Have you ever been to a moslem majority country? Islam is a way of life, you don't just simply pack up and leave your family and culture. Also if you are married then it gets increasingly complicated. Many things can become normative but that doesn't make it good or less oppressive.

You wouldn't pack up and leave if you were a girl that was 10-11 either would you?

I will apologize to you if you took any offense, I was just a bit taken back by your initial comment. My thoughts are Regardless of anything no human should be forced against her/his will in any way so long as they don't want to harm/kill. Of course I will never agree to the comment of "Burqas are oppressive", that is w/o specifying if it is being worn by force.

Oh please, I've been to morocco and they don't force their women to wear burqas. I mean come on now.

No one is making that claim.

I understand, I was using an example. btw I still don't think you are Islamophobic.

Second sentence reads extremely sarcastic, btw.

well it was sincere

Here is a snapshot for the burka sitch worldwide:

Afghanistan
The full Afghan chadri covers the wearer's entire face except for a small region about the eyes, which is covered by a concealing net or grille.

Before the Taliban took power in Afghanistan, the chadri was infrequently worn in cities. While they were in power, the Taliban required the wearing of a chadri in public. Officially, it is not required under the present Afghan regime, but local warlords still enforce it in southern Afghanistan. Chadri use in the remainder of Afghanistan is variable and is observed to be gradually declining in Kabul. Due to political instability in these areas, women who might not otherwise be inclined to wear the chadri must do so as a matter of personal safety.

India
Among the Muslim population in India, the burqa is common in many areas—old Delhi, for example. In the locale of Nizamuddin Basti, the obligation of a woman to wear a burqa is dependent on her age:[11] young, unmarried women or young, married women in their first years of marriage are required to wear the burqa.[11] However, after this the husband usually decides if his wife should continue to wear a burqa

Syria
Syria is a constitutionally secular state and discourages the wearing of traditional hijab. Ghiyath Barakat, Syria's minister of higher education, announced that the government would ban students, teachers or staff from covering faces at universities, stating that the veils ran counter to secular and academic principles of the country.

Burkas are also banned in several european countries: France, Belgium, Italy, and Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

And then there is Saudi Arabia:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burqa

I realize that burkas are not used by all islamic communities. It is a minority of moslem groups that use the burka. The problem is in many cases the burka is in place by force and not by choice.

EDIT: maybe I will come back when those pics are gone.... that is mcnasty, I wish I could un see that. --- Paging mods ----

No worries Kid. I am more interested in your views and why you hold them. I am really not too worried about the labels people dole out on the interweb

I tried to google whether or not Quran actually encourages violence and because the answer was unclear I went to a library and borrowed it. I think Im in no position to continue that argument until I have actually read the Quran.



I will once again go OT but after my comments I listened to some radio show where one letter came from a man whos (now ex) wife went to learn Buddhism and became "spiritually enlightened" (read: bat-s*** crazy) which ended up wrecking the marriage. However it might be that Buddhism brought out the crazy which was already there instead of creating it on an empty spot.

You seem sadly unaware of the political reality of the world. Freedom of Movement is a human right per UN resolution, but it is not something all states grant. And even in the cases you do have freedom to leave, you don't necessarily have the right to arrive somewhere.

Also, even if we disregard this - it might get a little cramped if everybody moves to the Netherlands.

And I don't think this is Islam's fault. My point is, it's not Islam that oppresses people. A state can use Islam to oppress people just like a state could use Christianity to oppress people. If tomorrow in the US, the Supreme Court decided a fundamentalist version of Christianity was the official religion and outlawed premarital sex, homosexuality, divorce, books on evolution, TV, and censored the internet, that would be oppressive. Would you then be arguing that Christianity is oppressive?

Because all the women would decide on the Netherlands, not any other of the vast majority of countries that don't require a burqa? If we're worried about things being cramped we should stop reproducing at the rate we are, it's going to be a big problem.

Also, if we really cared about the people in the Middle East then we would be impeaching Obama because of his drone strikes and war crimes. And we wouldn't be complicit as our gov't helped oppressive regimes. Anyone who wants to say Islam is oppressive should have no problem agreeing that the US gov't, and those with deep pockets heavily influencing the gov't, are oppressive. What we might disagree on is the degree...I would say that latter is far more oppressive than Islam.

If you actually knew much about Islam, you would know that Islam is very often more than just a book and a belief. You have Islamic theory of state, Islamic jurisprudence and Islamic philosophy. These are not necessary components of every variant of Islam nor are they always identical, but they do exist and they are developed as a part of Islamic theology.

Christianity for the most part had its wings clipped many centuries ago in regards to these issues. Corebook by corebook the two religions are fairly similar.

It was a joke, the Netherlands is regarded as a very liberal country - thus if we follow your logic it is likely the country in the world most people should flee too.

You are using hyperbole and exaggerating. Even if were to assume you didn't, two wrongs would not make a right - so it would be irrelevant.

Women who wear burkas by choice make me sad. And not just because i want to see stuff.

Heehaww,
I don't mean this in a spirit of 1up manship but have you ever been to a muslim country? Islam is a part of the fabric of life. It is not like in western countries where everyone lives very independently. Islam is deeply entrenched as part of the social identity and touches almost every aspect of life.

I was in Libya back in (2006?) and it was an incredible experience that is difficult to explain with words. Islam is everywhere from the pattern on the sidewalk to the calls to prayer several times daily. It is difficult to explain how pervasive the religious influence is.

Your suggestion to simply move away is kind of like telling an American to simply move to the moon if they don't like life on earth. In theory it is maybe possible but in reality seems very far out of reach for the average person.

Not to me LZ....

You think the UK is "bad", you ain't seen nothing! haha

Tame,

I think heehaww makes a valid point considering the facts of history. With issues like this, you may find many folks who will disagree with you.

George W Bush read his bible "every day" you can interpret this anyway you would like. The point is Bush is not a representative of Christianity as a whole, I would say the same about Al Queada and its offshoots which nonetheless were supplied/trained by the ISI/CIA in the 80s.

History proves that the society's where Islam was present were amongst the most accepting of non Muslims. I will gladly further debate this issue with you in the "How to Prevent Islamophobia thread" if you are interested.

Kid,
Have a look at the wiki article for "Islamic Terrorism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

There are islamic extremist groups all over the world committing acts of violence how can you definitively say they are not Islamic?

If Hezbollah is one thing it is surely Islamic. You may not like they way they interpret the Quran but that doesn't make them unislamic. The general public correctly includes Hezbollah and Al Qaeda as part of Islam though not necessarily representative of the whole.

When Bin Laden was killed, a bunch of porn videos were found at his place. The hijackers of 9/11 tried to order hookers, they also did order porn in their hotel rooms. In the terrorist attacks on India at the Taj Hotel in 2008, the operatives were mostly drug/war lords looking for land/money/resources.

Are you really making the "they weren't true Muslims" argument?

Really? Cause women who wear burkas by force make me sad.

One of the tenants of Al Qaeda/offshoots is the elimination of Shia Muslims, whom constitute 15% of the Muslim population worldwide. So not only are the goals of Al Qaeda money/land/resources, the organization itself targets fellow Muslims as well.