IMO wilco has taken things to the next level and crossed the line into accepting known hate sites as his sources. Imagine posting in the trayvon martin thread using a white supremacist site as a source, IMO Wilco is engaging in similar behavior itt with his recent linked page length hate post.

Wilcos recent page length post depicts English translations of the Quran in which we can not completely prove, more important it is the misconceived interpretations by Islamophobics like Robert Spencer which stands out in the mentioned post.

This is what some of the dividers of the world resort to, using hate sites as they simply are left out of options. In a epic fashion, Wilcogold readily admits he used http://pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com/ for his most detailed post in this thread.

Why don't you answer my questions? A simple yes or no will suffice.

It depends on which countries but Yes, I think women in Kuwait have the same opportunity if not better then women in the USA. I felt the desire to present valid stats from a non hate site to back up my argument.

Now that I answered your question, do you think this recent page length post by Wilco is Islamophobic?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=383

(here is where he copied it from --- >http://pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com/)

The sites title,

Pedestrian Infidel
Islam not just a religion -- Islam is a totalitarian political machine of bloodthirsty conquest which zealously advocates the downfall of all non Muslim governments, in particular the U.S. government.

I am reading your posts, you said nothing about the Achtiname, I believe that you have not mentioned the word Achtiname in any of your posts other then the one above.

@thekid345:
You have only replied to only one of my questions. I did not ask about Kuwait but about Muslim majority countires in general. So once again:

1) Do you think that the majority of Muslims share your view that men and women are equal?
2) Do you think that women in Muslim majoriy countries have the same rights as they have in western countries?

--

To answer your question anyway: yes, I consider what you quoted to be islamophobic. I certainly don't want wilco on my debate team and I even reported one of his posts (the wall of text of quran quotes). Keep in mind that if somebody who opposes your views presents bad arguments does not mean that your view is correct. It only means that he presented bad arguments.

1.) Well polls have suggesting conflicting results, according to a recent gallup poll I linked in the other Islam thread which was the largest study of its kind. Anyways I would imagine in certain areas of Pakistan/Yemen/Afghanistan men do not view women as equal. Although this seems to be a trend with the older demographics

2.) This is a complex question, because I would imagine some western countries have less female rights then those of some Middle Eastern countries. I will readily admit to you that women in Yemen are at a clear disadvantage compared to women in the United States/Canada/Germany/France.

EDIT: Louis, I assume from other posts you live in Germany? Estimates say that as high as 5% of the German population are Muslim, I found this to be interesting

Anyways I assume you view the thought of Überfremdung as a joke? I think Überfremdung in America is something that a fringe society (SIOA related websites here in the US and Europe) believes to be an issue

First of all, this thread is a complete train wreck.

Secondly, since zumby and RLK (both of whom I respect as generally excellent posters) asked a couple of questions, I would like to make my stance clear.

1. Asking whether a religion is "of peace" is meaningless in the last analysis. My point is not even that depending on how one would define a "religion of peace", one could conclude that all major world religions are of peace, or none of them are; my point is simply that the question is wrongly put.

2. A religion is different than a book, or books. It is a sociological entity, and as such its meaning should be found in its social manifestations (Example: One should be a real moron to reject the claim that in most of its actual history, Sufism advocated and taught the way to inner peace and calm to millions of people, all over the world. Now, is Sufism Islamic? Yes. Does that then show that Islam is a religion of peace. Not necessarily. This is not because the Sufis were dumb people who did not see that the essence of Islam was really violent and not peaceful at all -as most of the dumbos in the thread argue-, but because there is no "essence" of Islam--end of Example).

Islam is an umbrella term for a great number of, often vaguely related, social and historical practices. Some of these have been peaceful historically and some not (but, of course, this is true for every other major religion as well; and hence, the question is "wrongly put").

3. Religion is perhaps the most overrated explanatory variable in social sciences. Obsessing on it closes the mind on the really important variables (which are usually socio-economic). Example: Rwanda is a country in which one of the most horrible genocides in history has taken place recently. It is a predominantly Christian country. If some dumbo would argue that this religious fact would explain why a genocide happened there (you know...those genocidal Christians and their genocidal holy books) and would then provide a ton of verses from the Old Testament (an important Christian document, no doubt) to prove his point (and he can easily do that since the Bible is in fact full of vicious violence and bloodshed), all of us would laugh at that moron and his moronic explanation.

In the thread, we have such morons doing the exact thing for Islam, and nobody is laughing...This is just sad.

4. It is my firm belief that if all major religions would magically disappear from earth right at this moment, this magical development (which would perhaps give Richard Dawkins and his ilk a two-hour continuous orgasm) would do absolutely nothing (zero, nada, zilch) to turn the world into a more peaceful place.

5. If there is any "essence" to religion as such (of which I am highly sceptical) It is the following:

"Peace is primarily a state of mind. This state of mind could be (at least partially) achieved by giving up the hallucinations of the ego".

Since all major religions try to induce this state of mind in their followers (and as far as i can tell, all the teachings of world religions boil down to that really), in principle, they are all "true".

Since people do really like their egos, however, all religions demonstrably fail. Hence, one could argue that they are all "false" as well (alternatively: they are, in fact, all political shells of some inner teaching which has so far failed miserably).

To see why they all fail, one needs to study, human biology, economics, history and sociology; and not religion. This is a fool's game.

Cheers

Can you be specific?

Sure, For example Belize compared to U.A.E. We should probably get away from the term "western nations" tho. I would be happy to compare specific nations.

-Belize has a Gender Inequality Index rank of 71 out of 186

-Compared to say the United Arab Emirates which has a Gender Inequality Index rank of 40th out of 186

Apparently Norway is the # 1 country wrt equal treatment of women. USA is # 43

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR2013_EN_Statistics.pdf

Edit" I read the chart wrong, apparently the USA is ranked 42nd on the Gender inequality index. The U.A.E is ranked 40th. According to what the chart is saying.

This is great stuff IMO

So you basically picked the highest ranking Muslim nation and compared it with a low ranking western nation? Cool.

Look at these two resources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_Report

http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/68606.html

Look at the number of western nations and muslim nations in the top 10/20/30%. Compare with their representation in the bottom 10/20/30%.

Gender inequality in muslim nations is real and more pronounced than in western nations. Don't make yourself look like a fool and argue otherwise.

As damaci has pointed out you might make a case that this may be explained by socio-economic reasons and not religious. Both western and muslim nations tend to be doing better a job at gender equality if they are wealthier. The ceiling appears to be quite different though.

I dont think you would call a man a whore. I think you tried to reveal she is a whorey girl who has outside of marriage.

I agree I should have posted the link. Yet for the 4th time the point was the show the verses, not the explanation of them by that site. Whatever you think of me, everyone in this thread is a more honest debater than kid.

Like I said, it is not a good sign when the best scoring country is just in the top45. Surely there are some nonmumlim countries which rank lower, but it is the average which counts. But inbefore another wikipedia copy paste about kuwait.

Great stuff, but I think at the end you go astray. At the end you are using the same logic (religions fail cause most people fail), which you have been criticizing in point 3.

The last sentence claims something what is perhaps the most overrated thesis since human being.
Now this is a claim and I have to prove it:
One can study all the sciences around the world including religions, it will give you some very limited understanding but not more. The thing is that it fails its main (faked) aim, its pretend aim is making right conclusions but how can it lead to right conclusions when studying boosts your ego (=subjectivity). You can discuss things with people who did study a lot just like you can discuss things with fundamentalists. Both are trained in trying to dominate others (more about this you can find in my comments in 'How we can prevent Islamophobia').
As you have studied Islam, you might know the meaning of sho'ur. What one needs is sho'ur (I would define sho'ur as the capability to decide to do the right thing). What promotes sho'ur, is objective understanding. How is objective understanding achievable?
As promoting Ego leads inevitably to subjective perception, we need to calm down the Ego, we have to avoid everything what motivates Ego.
This is not difficult and everyone knows it, even without knowing any religions (religions are reminders). And this is what makes people like Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, Mandela etc. winners and us losers.
What makes them winners? They never say, today I must eat scampi, my doorway has to look like this, my car must be like this, my graduation, my kitchen, my wife, my schedule, my child, my sleep,.....
If Moses would think like this, he would never go to the most powerful man who did call himself god and would tell him, what you do to us, is unjust. You are better off to obey me. Would we go to Saddam Hussein and tell him things like this? Did we ever pass by someone who was freezing in a cold winter and we did take off our Jacket and did give it to him?
Just take a look at a picture of Gandhi and a picture of Pele, who is the winner? Religions don't fail, we fail.

Edit: One might say lots of fundamentalists don't care how their kitchen should be, yes, but they say all people around the world must live the way they like it.

So basically it is silly to use religion as a tool to explain human actions and trends, as it is only a sociological entity. Instead you should use sociology. Got it.

Maybe in the future you should focus less on the premise that everybody else are laughable morons (paraphrased).

I will readily admit both Muslim majority/non Muslim majority countries like Rwanda, C.A.R, Yemen, and Pakistan have a ways to go wrt being on equal ground to that of Muslim majority/non Muslim majority countries like the U.A.E and Germany's high quality level of education offered toward women.

Anyway, I did look at your both of your sources, including http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Gen...13.pdf#page=20

Which is the same source that I provided in my last post. My year is 2012, where as you posted data from 2013. It appears that the USA jumped from 42nd in 2012 to 23rd in 2013.


As recent as 2011, in the UAE Women in the labour force was listed at 43.5% According to the http://hdr.undp.org/hdr4press/press/...e.pdf#page=168

The 2007 report on the progress of MDGs in the UAE states, “the proportion of females in higher education has risen remarkably at a rate that has not been achieved in any other country in the world



Exceeding standard international obligations as a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), the UAE regularly participates and hosts international conferences on women’s issues. The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is an example of a rapid and successful development story in the
region, in terms of both the infrastructure and economy of the country and also the progress of its people. The UAE’s achievement is perhaps best typified in the evolution and growing prominence of Emirati women as partners and contributors in this remarkable nation-building process. Women, who account for 49.3 percent of the national population, according to the 2005 Census, are today at the forefront of the workforce in the UAE in both the government sector as well as a growing number in the private sector. Aided by the government’s commitment to empower women and provide
them with equal opportunities, the status of women within the UAE has flourished in parallel with the country’s growth since the federation was established in 1971. It is evident across the UAE that women today constitute a vital part of the nation’s workforce and actively contribute to the country’s government and economy

http://www.upr-info.org/IMG/pdf/UPR_UAE_ANNEX3_E.pdf

It appears in some cases women can get a better education in parts of the Middle East compared to parts of the United States. So we can go back and fourth with the same sources wrt this issue.

No , I did not intend this at all, that gave me a laugh tho. I thought she was a w**** because of the filth she was spewing, I would have said a similar remark about a guy. The term w**** is used plenty of times in OOT, it recently was used along with the c word wrt a women who hunts animals for fun in the USA.

Also for instance

Whore
Minor annoyance. You're not really mad at them, but sitll kinda pissed.
"Hey, who ate the last doughnut?"

"I did."

"Whore.

Men can be called whores

FWIW I view women as equal to men, if I did not I would tell you otherwise.

Why on earth would you do that? Your view on sexism is 10 years out of date. Perhaps what you actually meant was that everyone should be treated equally?

ok...

What's your point and did anybody argue otherwise?

You still cherrypick data. We can go back and forth but that doesn't mean we are both right.

North America might have a small edge on the greater Middle east in terms of equality between men and women, but you said "western nations.

Is USA/Mexico's education system/treatment of women greater then that of Saudi Arabia, for instance?

According to the corruption perceptions index the USA were ranked # 19(out of 177) with a score of 73 (out of 100)

-The U.A.E were not far behind with a ranking of #26 with a score of 69

-Saudi Arabia was ranked 63rd


http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_International

The Corruption Perceptions Index ranks countries and territories based on how corrupt their public sector is perceived to be

Transparency International (TI) is a non-governmental organization that monitors and publicizes corporate and political corruption in international development.

So?

Are you kidding?

You could, of course, use religion as "one" of the sociological factors explaining a society's level of success etc. My point is not that it is completely useless. My point is that it is incredibly overrated.

Tangential Point: I think this obsession with religion in recent decades (which is, sorry, but really moronic) is at least partially related to the general decline of Marxian (not Marxist, but related materialist approaches) analysis in social sciences in general. I think trading Karl Marx with Samuel Huntington roved to be a bad bargain.

Now, carry on...

Cheers