Appeal to the majority? Also you've moved from 'gambling addictions' to 'addictions' which is kinda moving the goalposts there mate.

Whatever the 'many' think, I don't consider gambling to be immoral or wicked even if it's become an addiction. I'm addicted to Battlefield 4, Raisins and debating people online (and watching cat videos) but I don't consider myself immoral or wicked for those addictions. And yes that's subjective, which is why I explained how I felt about it but didn't make any suggestions about how you should feel.

Gonna come back to this, need to think about it more.

I'm not appealing to the majority, because I'm not making an argument. It's just an observation, this is all subjective, many people consider addictions in general to be vices, including gambling.

By all means, I'm not going to tell you how to think, you misunderstood me if you believe I'm trying to argue you are wrong.

Quick note about martingale - have you ever actually tried this at a casino? It's completely useless, which is why casinos don't care if you do it. For starters, there is usually a cap, which right away defeats the system, but even if there were not, you end up potentially risking 100 times the amount you are trying to win. You start with 1 unit, then 2,4,8,16,32. You've risked 62 units here in order to win 1. If it goes 8 in a row you need 255 units, all to win 1 unit.
If you have that many units to begin with, the prospect of winning 1 unit at a time while possibly risking that many units is not exactly enticing.

Exactly.

To try and answer your question further, I will bring forth a Muslim, who says that, as long as one believes in God, and does good deeds for the community, that one can get into heaven. The man below, Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad, also talks about how it is Allah who decides who gets into heaven, as opposed to some human who is saying that poker players may or may not get into heaven.



We also know that both the Quran and the Bible, dont specifically talk about any games similar to poker. Its safe to say that a meth dealer who donates money to charity, is not the same as a poker player who donates money to charity, the poker player is not killing his fellow poker players. While a meth dealer can assist in the death of one of its buyers.




Basically, IMO, as long as you do good deeds for the community, and as long as you follow the tenets of Islam or Christianity, you can get into heaven.

Ironically, a view that is rejected by the vast majority of both Moslems and Christians. I am not saying you are wrong but only that most Moslems and Christians don't see it that way.

There are good biblical reasons for this.

Sure you were, the 'but' is an argument marker in that context.

Your argument is that addictions are vices and that it must be true because many agree. Unfortunately, that doesn't make them right in this context, especially with no details about who the 'many people' are..

You just did it again.

Oh but you are telling me what to think, 'many people agree that addiction a vice' is an argument, you're making an argument because you want to convince me that addiction is a vice and pointing out that if I don't agree, I'm in a minority. Or perhaps you're trying to convince yourself, but there's some convincing going on for sure.

I don't mind, I just pointed out that I'm not telling you what to think because I don't know the correct answer to this, I'm only telling you what I think.

Yes there's a cap, because the casinos DO care. They know that without the cap they'll lose.

There seems to be a rather big contradiction here.

You read far too much into that, and you're now arguing (for some reason) that I am making an argument, when I'm just making an observation. I already said that I'm not trying to convince you, that this is all subjective, and you are able to hold any view you wish, since it is subjective. You don't believe that these things are vices, that's cool with me. A vice by definition is subjective.

Perhaps, although aren't there no-max games where this is possible?

wrong. tell any casino in the world that you want to martingale and ask that they please remove the table limit and they will happily grant your request.

you may need to move to a new table or something because those caps are sometimes in place because of the size/amount of chips in their rack, but they'll make it work.

they like money and want you to bet as much of it as you are willing. you will lose on average HouseEdge*AmountWagered.

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naked - don't listen to MB on this topic, he is clueless.

I used to try to martingale playing BJ, and quickly found out that was untenable with the amount of money I brought to the table. I usually ended up trying the reverse-martingale, and chickening out after I won a few in a row.

NR, you presented an argument whether or not you meant to or are particularly invested in it.

If you aren't trying to present a case for why addictions are a vice, why mention that most people would agree that they are? It's not just a harmless figure of speech, it's a premise. Not just a premise in this case, it's a fallacy.

I don't think addictions are a vice, but I haven't said anything more than that, a simple fact. no reasons for why I think it.

I dont know about that. The man in the video I presented was a Muslim, albeit a Ahmadiyya Muslim, but still a Muslim.

I want to clarify my last post though, I stated and as long as you follow the tenets of Islam or Christianity, you can get into heaven.

That was poorly written on my part, I meant to say that as long as you believe in God, no matter your faith, and you do good deeds for the community,then you have a chance to get into heaven, this is according to the view of an person who was a important Muslim leader. But it is also the view of the Catholic Church to an extent, which says that Muslims can get into heaven.

If you were to say, go to an Imam in Saudi Arabia, and ask him if he thinks non Muslims can get into heaven, the answer very well could be no, but the same can be said for a Rabbi in Israel, who may believe only Jews can get into heaven.

No expert but not clueless. I know enough that I wouldn't try this IRL. In a hypothetical where I have unlimited funds and there's no house edge, I win eventually, then I walk away.

I already conceded to you and said you're right, and have stated many times since that it's just my opinion, and yours is a valid perspective. Not sure what else you would like me to do to communicate that you're right.

Not every post in every thread needs to be a debate, sometimes its mindless talk with nothing underneath the surface. No harm, no foul though, I may have been wrong to overstate my opinion in that way.

As for martingale, I remember trying it on some pc game, Hoyle or some such, you're right in theory that with an infinite bank account you will win, but you're only winning 1 unit at a time, and it takes some time to do. A dude with thousands of units is not really going to get the most bang for his buck as it were, by making a dozen units for an hour of play. If you're tempted to try it, I'll save you some anticipation, you're gonna get bored out of your mind 20 minutes in and up a few of units, and close up shop.

The Vatican does seem to say its ok for a Catholic to play poker at a casino and win or lose.

I understand some Catholic church's hold events that include beer/gambling tents, I dont know if I agree with this approach. I'm not disagreeing with the Church here, as I have in fact been to a beer/gambling tent event sponsored by a Catholic Church , but I dont think I will be attending any more beer/gambling tents ran by Catholic Church's in the future.

This sounds nice but I don't think very many Moslems or Christians believe this. It is important to delineate mainstream theology from fringe teachings in respect to Islam and Christianity.

Of course you are free to believe whatever you want personally. However, to state what you did above and somehow say it is the view of Islam and Christianity is not accurate.

Fringe teachings?



My belief that both Muslims and Catholics can get into heaven, is supported by the Catholic Church. As for individual Catholics, if they are against the view that a Muslim can get into heaven, then they are against the Catholic Church, weather they know it or not. Now this does not translate into necessarily being against Christianity, many evangelical Christians in the USA are greatly criticized by Catholic leaders for numerous things.

Also, the view that someone can get into heaven as long they believe in God and do good deeds for the community, is supported by the Quran, along with the Muslim man in the video I recently posted. I'm not trying to cause an argument here, I'm merely pointing out whats in the Quran and what Muslim leaders have to say. I will say, we are truly unaware of how many Muslims support the views I have mentioned. One would have to ask the 1.7 billion Muslims around the world what there thoughts are on what the Quran is saying, along with what certain Muslim leaders have to say. One can note a difference of opinion among Muslims around the world.

"
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
"

I respectfully disagree with the teaching that good deeds is what brings salvation, or that you can get saved without faith in Christ. Biblically, the simplest interpretation, imo, is salvation through faith.

I'm not especially clear about the tenets of Islam.

I'm not a mathematician, but I've been toying around with this online martingale simulator (hope I'm allowed to post this link, sorry if not) and it seems that the more games you play the more likely it is you go broke.

Even holding 10 million units to bet with, if you play a million times, you seem to bust quite a bit, at 5 million times you bust half the time, and at 10 million times, you nearly always bust.

This makes sense because if you are forced to play 5 million spins, you are more likely to hit some dreadful bad streak of losses.

Edit: 99999999 crashes everything fyi.

that is entirely correct

In Islam it is the belief in single God (monotheism) and belief in all the prophets and that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the last of the prophets. This alone will not save u from punishment for your sins, but will grant you admittance into heaven.

So if I would like to be saved, what do I need to do and or believe? Just believe that God and Muhammad exist?

depends on what u mean by saved...

lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muḥammadun rasūlu-llāh

translates as

there is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God

this is known as the shahadah and is the first most important principle of Islam and being muslim. the meaning of Islam is 'submission' and muslims are 'submitters to God'.

as to being saved, you have to define what you regard as 'being saved' it more precisely. Ultimately, as a very simple answer, your good deeds must outweigh your bad deeds to be granted passage into Jannah (paradise, heaven.. etc)