God cannot die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQp...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

Regards
DL

I think so

Those are decent, but we're here to learn what we don't already know right? These are far more interesting - http://www.jahtruth.net/emmau2.htm

Hmm. Just as much as it isn't important to the British if the people in Russia reject Queen Elizabeth II, so it is with Israel and Edom.

Jesus said that he came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. In the Book of Revelation he says the Jews arn't Jews, i.e. not decendands of Judah, (though they are descendants of Abraham fwiw).

Still, we can have a discussion on whether or not he fulfilled the prophecies.

Here you make a good point I think, it does seem like the NT authors could have done a better job with their references.

Instead of the "weak" prophecies, which leave room for debate skill; which can be fun, lets look at the strongest ones. (to be continued...)

Hmm, I'm not satisfied with that. Lets look at the strongest ones first, then the ones I linked to, and then the weak ones start to reveal themselves.

Even though Jesus was quoting, it seems unlikely he would have done so without the quote expressing his point of view at that moment. Anyway, another example:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

An interesting read.

My impression from seeing how Jesus relates to the Father is that it is not two Gods talking. Nor is it God talking to himself. In fact, it very much resembles the way humans pray to their Creator.

The problem as I see it is the idea of God having a God. If Jesus is God, and Jesus refers to someone as "my God", then God has a God, which I don't think anyone accepts as possible.

Just so I dont have to go digging through your list myself, do you mind pointing me to what you consider the "strongest ones", or just the single strongest prophesy?

Thanks!

Yet the OT itself says being rejected is a trait of the true Messiah.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

All people in the history of Judaism that have claimed to be the Messiah were rejected by men, so I'm not really sure what makes Jesus unique in this regard.

Aren't the Jews more expert on the "Old Testament"?

They say it is not about Jesus at all.

http://www.jewishisaiah53.com/The%20suffering.pdf
http://www.jewishisaiah53.com/Why%20dont%20jews.pdf

One of these arguments is that the miracles that Jesus did attest to the fact that he must have been the Messiah. At this point, we will not discuss the historical credibility of the Gospel accounts. Suffice it to say, there are extremely strong grounds for doubting the veracity of these stories. Let’s assume, however, that it is possible that Jesus performed numerous miracles. The question that needs to be asked is, “How many times does the Bible tell us that we will be able to identify the Messiah as a result of the miracles he will perform?”
The answer to this question is that the Bible never tells us that miracles are relevant in this regard. It is important to understand why this is so. Why didn’t the Bible ever inform us that we would be able to identify the Messiah through his miracles?
The reason for this omission stems from the fact that miracles are an unreliable barometer of anything. While Moses performed miracles in Egypt, Pharaoh’s magicians were able to replicate them (Exodus chapters 7-8). In Deuteronomy chapter 13, we are told that false prophets will have the ability to perform supernatural miracles in order to test our fidelity to G-d. Interestingly, the Greek scriptures state that false messiahs will do incredible miracles to mislead people (Matthew 24:24). Clearly, if a false messiah is able to perform miracles, then miracles cannot prove that someone is the Messiah.

Like an “archer” who first shoots his arrow into a tree and then paints a target around the arrow, these Christians assume from the outset that Jesus was the Messiah and then try to find passages in the Bible which “sound like” Jesus.

It should be abundantly clear, then, that the servant is the nation Israel. When we combine these two facts, the fact that the theme of second Isaiah is the restoration of Israel after Exile, and the fact that the servant is the nation Israel itself, we then find that the meaning of the Song of the Servant, in chapter 53, becomes clear.

Actually the Christian interpretation does not even fit the context of Isaiah 52-54, and further is not supported by some statements in the Song itself. For example, verse 10 states that the Servant will live a long life, and have many children. It should be fairly obvious that Jesus died at a young age, and never had any children. Christian apologists often claim that this verse is symbolic, that it refers to Jesus' resurrection, and the establishment of the Christian Church. It has not been explained why we are required to take the rest of Isaiah 53 literally, but this one verse as allegorical.

One I hear a lot is the Messiah has to be a descendent of Solomon. There was a condition that Solomon did not fulfill. Christ was a descendent of David through David's son Nathan.

2Ch 7:17 And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;
2Ch 7:18 Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
2Ch 7:19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
2Ch 7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

1Ki 11:6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
1Ki 11:7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
1Ki 11:8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

Jesus does have being rejected in common with those guys, which makes him not unique in that respect. Speaking of which, here is another example of where the OT anticipates the Messiah's rejection:

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

http://www.jewishisaiah53.com/Why%20dont%20jews.pdf

It is possible to see that in the 1st century, the followers of Jesus did not understand this passage in Isaiah as a Messianic prophecy. In the 16th chapter of Matthew, Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah. At that point, Jesus tells his followers that he will go to Jerusalem and suffer many things and ultimately be killed. Peter should have said, “Of course! You are the suffering servant from Isaiah 53!” But Peter doesn’t react this way. He protests and says that this will never happen to Jesus. In the 9th chapter of Mark, Jesus teaches his disciples that he will be delivered up to evil men who will kill him. However, Mark tells us in verse 32, “But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.” Clearly, these followers of Jesus did not assume that he came to the world in order to suffer and die. They were never led to believe that this chapter of Isaiah forecast the death and suffering of the Messiah.

[ ] “Of course! You are the suffering servant from Isaiah 53!”
[x] he protests and says that this will never happen to Jesus

Thanks Concerto, I remembered it after you brought it to my attention.

I think he was quoting it to show that the cross was foretold right down to the words of the false priest.

I believe Christ was God in the flesh. Not with the power of God the Father but with the same Spirit. Separate but the same.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Jesus is both fully God and fully man. He prays like a man, and sometimes he even says he prays things aloud for the benefit of others that will hear him. Like when he prays before raising Lazarus for instance.

Again, this does not disallow him from being God.

Concerto, since you don't believe in the "2nd coming" or more specifically, you believed that many of the prophesies in the NT and Revelations have already occurred, how do you avoid the problem that Jesus never fulfilled any of the requirements necessary for him to be the Messiah?

I listed these ten things, and although they may not all be correct, are you claiming that these things are not Messianic prophesies/requirements?

1. Israel re-established as a nation.
2. Universal knowledge of God.
3. Return of remnants of all lost tribes to Israel.
4. No more war.
5. No more disease.
6. Israel becomes most important country in the world.
7. Recognition that the Jews had it right all along by kings of the nations.
8. City of Damascus is obliterated.
9. Resurrection of the dead.
10. Reconstruction of the Temple.

This has been discussed many times before, but feel free to continue the discussion here as consensus was never reached in previous discussions. This was the last thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...istian-921389/

which also links to other threads that should include plenty of posts from Pletho and Concerto, two of the more knowledgable Christians who claim that Jesus is not God.

I know numerous very knowledgeable, intelligent men and women that have some bizarre beliefs.

Also I think some of those listed prophesies are to be fulfilled in the second coming of Christ. I'm not well studied on prophesies, so I'd have to do research to back that statement up.

edit: i skimmed over that thread and it looked to me like Brother Jerry gave truck loads of content to back up his doctrine, and what Concerto brought to the discussion was easily enough explained by Brother Jerry.

Jesus has fulfilled all of the prophesies we expect the Messiah to have fulfilled by now. I have not seen any Biblically cited exceptions.

Partially. For the most part I'm just reluctant to wade into such ambiguously worded claims. Maybe you could cite the scriptural sources for a few of them so it's clear what they mean.

why do you believe the Jews disagree with you? Also, can you list a few more substantive prophesies? Being rejected by people and suffering doesn't seem all that interesting.

I'll get back to you tomorrow with this.

yes, thats not surprising. That said, from my time on this board, it appears you are a fairly new Christian, and Pletho and Concerto have clearly been studying the bible for many more years than you. As far as I can tell their arguments appear to hold more weight. Why is Jesus being God so necessary?

sounds good, but if Jesus is suppose to fulfill those prophesies in his second coming then what makes you believe he should be qualified as the messiah *now*? What has he done to earn that title/position?

that wasn't my impression, but of course I dont have any personal opinion on the matter. If you spend more time on this forum you'll figure out who knows what they are talking about, even if they may come off as someone you dont want to listen to.

I don't know which is the strongest, but this is on my mind atm, and it's strong IMO. (its an image prophecy as opposed to scripture)

Numbers Chapter 1:1 and 2 predicts the Cross :

The encampment of the tribes is clearly in the shape of a cross. If you notice the numbers of each tribe and their positions in the camp, the top is shorter and the bottom is longer; not as dismissively (for you) a standard plus (+), it looks like (t) without the squigley - the cross.

Hmm, I throw in this bonus link of a fascinating speach given by someone you've all heard of. I think he got it right this night. A snipet:

http://jahtruth.net/louis.htm

Really interesting information concerning the trinity in ancient Jewish teachings:

I'd read about the Shema from Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.", but the above is new to me.

Find a thread discussing the trinity IMO. This thread is IS JESUS THE MESSIAH. If you wanted to talk about another messiah, that would be as far as one should get away.

This isn't about whether Jesus is God, The Arch Angel Michael (ding), trinity, neo....well maybe neo.

*edit- hmm, maybe your arguing a pre trinity trinity, linking that to Jesus. Perhaps that is a valid line (in the loosest sense)....I apologize

Directly relevant to the above in the OP imo.

Christ name means Yehovah Savior or something close.

G2424
Ἰησοῦς
Iēsous
ee-ay-sooce'
Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites: - Jesus.


The Hebrew.

H3091
יהושׁע יהושׁוּע
yehôshûa‛ yehôshûa‛
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
From H3068 and H3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (that is, Joshua), the Jewish leader: - Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua.

Made of two Hebrew words. The first being the name of God:

H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord.

The other meaning things like save, savior, deliverer, bring salvation.

H3467
ישׁע
yâsha‛
yaw-shah'
A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.