Well, new to me anyway.

I had some Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) come to my door today. I engaged with them and used some of the advice I've had from posters on this forum. I abandoned my usual arguments and taking a lead from the thread about why Theists on this forum have become Atheists (primarily it was scientific theory/evidence that caused the change) I discussed some actual bible stories with them hoping to get them thinking about the ones that have been undermined by naturalistic explanations.

We inevitably talked about Noah and I ran through some of the scientific reasons why it's highly unlikely that a global flood ever occurred and during that the question arose about where the water came from. You'd need a lot of water to cover the surface of the planet to a depth of at least 5 miles. The JW theory was that the water was in space, forming a 'canopy' around the Earth. No answers were forthcoming on how that water didn't freeze, how people could see the stars through it, where it came from (except 'goddidit') but when I asked how it came to the Earth's surface 'did it rain?' they assured me that yes indeed, it rained from space.

Proof of this came in the form of at least one mammoth that had been found with 'fresh' food both in it's stomach and in it's mouth. This happened because when the water descended from space, it froze so rapidly (which kinda contradicts the 'it rained' theory) that the mammoth froze mid-chew.

Has anybody ever heard that theory before? This is a new tack for me and it was actually kinda fun.

Its actually a lot more complex than that.

The noah story is a good one, almost all of the ancient religions had one. In almost all of the ancient religions, the earth had been, or will be destroyed, by earth, wind, fire, and water, and most of them had most recently dealt with water.

Einstein I believe, was a proponent of a theory called earth crust displacement. That the poles build up unevenly and the wobble will eventually cause a total shift of the earths crust around the core. Putting our temperate regions at the poles, and making Antarctica the only real inhabitable landmass. The melting caps would have enough water, and the earth would almost certainly go through a cold spell, as the salinity fell, and more and more of the earth becomes white.

This would occur relatively fast, explains some of the real oddities of our current civilization. Like those mammoths, the piri reis maps(still much speculation about those), evidence of historic inland glaciers, the shifting magnetic poles, the ancient religions, even aspects of astrology.

Careful study shows that the procession of the equinoxes seems to line up with what we know about the historical magnetic shifts of the earth. The great pyramids at Giza line up with the stars of Orions belt, but not exactly. At the same time of the procession of the equinox's, and the shifting magnetic poles however, they would have been a perfect match.

There is so much more to it, keep an open mind, I would be interested to hear your scientific evidence that a global flood never occurred, when there is in fact mountains of evidence that many many many areas that are now land, were at one time underwater.

A puddle in my backyard does not indicate there was a worldwide rainstorm last night.

Ice cores going back 40,000 years show no evidence of a global flood. Tree rings going back 10,000 years show no evidence of a global flood. Lake varves (Suigetsu in Japan) going back 20,000 years(40K? can't remember) show no evidence of a global flood.

Countless species that require specialized environments that would have died off in a global flood are still here--including many diseases.

The pyramids in Egypt show no evidence of being immersed.

Many Mesopotamian societies were around before the flood, and continued after it, with no break in their society or history. Their languages were different from each other before a supposed flood; and don't change to a common language afterward.

The list goes on and on and on.

Did the Dinasours drown? Can someone post a timeline of events so we can easily look for prove? I mean when this the flood happened? Like 1 million years ago or 5k years or 10k

ya 4500 years ago

i just spent soooooooooo long looking for an article just now its like "30 mammoths found in the middle of iraq" or something (when they originate from siberia) its like ultimate proof of the flood

You are kidding right?
Dude there's historics events dated that long... Don't you think something that wiped everything would be a big deal? This is silly

Noah clearly traveled to Siberia on his land ark to pick up the mammoths so that he could leave them in Iraq after.

The pyramids in ancient Egypt were build around 3000-2500 BC so this was before the big flood and there's so many things to explain... If we all got wiped out how did Asians, blacks etc pro created so fast if only Noah and his family were alive? How they travel so fast etc. lol man this thing is mind bending stuff

Even if there was proof of a world wide flood - which there is not - this would in no way be any kind of proof that the Biblical story is anything more than just that - a story. It would certainly not be proof of anything divine.

Actually the JW's said that it occurred 'about 4000 years ago' but surely the best evidence that it never happened would be that after almost a year (there's some doubt about how long the flood actually lasted) immersed in water, all vegetation on the planet would have died, including sea weeds since most of them are shallow water species. So, when the flood waters recede, what is producing the oxygen we see in our atmosphere (and that geological records show has contained at least 15% Oxygen for hundreds of millions of years) and could the eco system possibly have recovered to the extent we see now in only 4000 years?

One argument I've seen suggests that:

P1) The Bible states there was a worldwide Flood.
P2) We see plants today.
C) Therefore plants survived the Flood.

That argument seems invalid by my understanding since I can imagine an argument where Noah himself carried the seeds necessary to re-establish the planet's vegetation, it's no more unlikely than carrying enough genetic variety to replenish the world's fauna is it? It' an unsound argument though since the 'there was a worldwide flood' premise may not be true.

There's also the issue that 5 miles of water weighs a lot and would have caused significant seismic activity as it pressed down on the land masses it was covering. AFAIK there's no evidence of that in the geological record.

I have an answer for you there MB: I just read a webpage which claimed all landmasses were flat before the flood, and this is why it could all be covered with water and that is why the bible was correct. It was only a few feet deep this flood.

But the bible states that all the high mountains were covered, but where did the mountains come from if all the land was flat? Did God make big holes in the land that he put mountains in... why isn't this mentioned in the bible?

And why wasn't Noah and his family scared out of their minds when they got out and there was huge geographical structures everywhere? And how did they get all the praire-animals of Ararat?

And maybe not last, even if the flood didn't have to cover Ararat in the beginning... then surely it had to cover it in the end...right?


It's all so confusing.

@Mightyboosh:

You're argumentation appears sound on first glance but have you accounted for magic?

I can't tell if you're poking fun at me here but I'll proceed on the assumption that you're not. The JW's agreed that the flood covered Everest, hence the '5 miles of water'. They didn't mention the Earth being completely flat. I love the way that article supports the global flood theory by pointing out that there are fossil clams at the summit of Everest and that they must have been deposited there during the flood whilst completely failing to take into account the tectonic processes that geologists theorize created the Himalayas. Also, if the same species of clams were found in rocks at sea level, where they would have been under 5 miles of water and actually unable to exist, that would support that Everest was raised after the fossils were created, rather than that this all happened at the same time.

It also occurs to me that an entire planet's worth of rotting vegetation would produce significant quantities of methane, a very potent greenhouse gas, which would most likely have resulted in a warming pulse. Again, there's no evidence to suggest that this occurred.

No, I'm applying Methodological Naturalism. I don't get the chance to use that phrase very much

I think I'm poking fun of people, not you.

Anybody who believes there has been a global flood the last 10 000 years is ignorant to such a spectacular degree that debate is likely impossible. The best argument anybody can muster towards this seems to be "you weren't there man!" which, when we think about it, is somewhat ironic.

I think you've hit it on the head; Atlantis , the land between Africa, Europe and America suffered the "flood". the overwhelming majorties of peoples lived within these borders and as it would be so, there were migrations throughout the world, east and west.

To the west is the ancestor of the American Indian and to the east were many peoples with the seed of our present culture traveling to southern India. And so, approximately 10,000 to 11,000 years ago there was this great flood noted in the chronicles of many peoples .

By the way, the story of Noah speaks to the "ark" to which some believe it was a physical boat, lost, and yet to be found. Man is a mathematically proportioned being and the measurements of the "ark" are the measurements of Man, himself. The mathematics which we have brought up with our thinking is that new proportion or balanced consideration; this being the mathematics of man, his inner being. Presently it is to a large consideration "abstracted" but the real mathematics of the" proportions of Man" are living and experienced within the soul of the individual human being.

Not sure about the 3 sons of Noah but I do know that the progenitor of the Hebrew people is Shem whose "etheric body" is passed onto his descendents. That of course is another story and for this the "etheric body" or "life body" could have to be considered.

Debunking anything like this(the flood) is facile but you have to ask; how is it that there are so many stories of a "flood" that have come to us from ancient times? You don't have to believe it but give these peoples something for by gosh you were there during that time.

That's just gibberish

We do not deny that there have been floods all throughout history. There is no evidence of a global flood though.

Why do you expect evidence ? We can't know everything. Man knows but a small fraction of things.

There are more things in heaven and earth
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7)

Surprised you didn't go with:
"There are more things in heaven and earth
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy", said Jesus

Thank you for the LOL.

I hope to clarify this "inner mathamatizing" of Man. From birth onward to the age of seven (7) or more appropriately the change of teeth the individual spirit/soul being, that is Man, is inextricably involved with his growth, to which he has been "instructed' prior to birth. I'' try to use the words carefully for modern language is focused upon the "sensible world, of that of the senses" and speaking of spiritual movements or spiritual beings is difficult and should be considered more of a "pointer" to those realities.

If one looks at the inner being of the growing child he develops senses which are all not often thought of within the modern parlance. He develops a "Sense of Life", that inner sense which can present to us a feeling of well being or not so well being; the sense that "I am alive".

He also develops a "Sense of Movement" is that the growing child becomes aware of not only movements of the external world but his inner movement as for example his arms and legs. Further on the sense of movement speaks to the movement of one thought to another but again this is an "inner" sense, that of movement.

A third sense is well known to the modern researcher, the "Sense of Balance". When the child first stands in the upright position, this very act is a spiritual separation from the animal kingdom and is again, inextricably involved with the "Ego" in that the "I" begins its work.

The three senses and the development of the growing child are involved with inner mathematical movement, living and creative, to which the the child is involved. At about the age of seven (7) or the change of teeth the inner awareness of his previous activities which do continue on, in a sense, become unconscious (again the words are difficult here). At that time we see the beginnings of an abstracted mathematics which the individual can be taught only because he can bring forth, for example, the geometric conceptions of Euclid from his own inner being.

We are used to looking at matters from without but consider that mathematics cannot be seen with the senses or sense bound realities in relation to the external world but come from within the individual man. My exposition is to not only display that indeed mathematics does come from the inner man( most if not all mathematicians would agree with this) but that this mathematics or "mathematizing" is a inner creative activity within the human being , in movement and is directly related to the senses of Life, Movement and Balance.

I don't buy it carlo. Everyone knows that numbers were invented by the Arabs so by that logic Islam is the one true religion. And another thing if God invented numbers why didn't he invent more of them ?

Fingers and toes and poppycock more and heaven forbid that I'd even eat a schmore.

You guys are using the bible to put words in my mouth.

My original response had nothing to do with the bible.

Furthermore, I disagree with the Egyptological dating of the pyramids. Any geologist worth his salt could tell you that the great pyramids at giza and the sphynx are much much older. Any layman can see the difference in construction between the buildings at Giza and the "lesser pyramids" that were build much later, and were probably possible using slave labor. We can get into this if you want, the only thing debatable is the dates, they were built by entirely different means, that is obv.

The time stamp, that the pyramids themselves at giza form, wrt the star chart is around 12,500 BC. I do not think this was a construction date however, but maybe 10kBC would be a good guess, based on geological evidence primarily from the sphynx. The site itself is so amazing, the way everything lines up, and that the location would be geologically stable for millennia. It did not happen by chance.

Earth has a gyroscopic precession period of about 26000 years, which divided by 12 gives you the constellations. The constellations show us where in earths gyroscopic precession we are, the 12500 BC date seem to correspond with this. The dates and numbers that abound in the pyramids, the buildings in SA, as well as all the major religions, give the numbers for calculating this. These things were done in a specific way to pass on knowledge to the next civilization, that one day human civilization can bridge that gap. I am sure the previous poster is correct about other mathematical uses for the ark, as it is clear the people responsible for the pyramids had a greater understanding of many things than we do now, and much of that knowledge was put into story form.


I think Einstein had theorized the earth crust displacement would kick between 30 and 60 degrees, IIRC. Some places would obv go faster than others, there would be a violent and turbulent transition.

I'm not saying the flood covered the whole earth, but how far down did the glaciers come in north america during the last ice age? 30 - 60 degrees? Coincidence?

Please argue about the pyramids at giza, they are so amazing I would love to get into it.

I honestly believe this has happened. We keep going through iterations of civilization. Most of the ancient cultures, that we considered to have technology ahead of their time, wrt agriculture and architecture and especially astronomy, said that people came to them on boats and taught them. It is a common theme in the ancient worlds.

We know the earths crust is moving, and we know it is speeding up. We know the magnetic poles are moving, we know they are speeding up. We don't know much else about the hows and whys.

Where are you getting this from? As far as I'm aware, Atlantis is also a myth.

Huh?

You'd think, but you try doing it with people who actually believe it.

I think coming up with an explanation for this is facile.

Hmm, something about engaging with cretins. Thanks for the unintended comment, but then I never thought that this was a high quality thread anyway.

Perhaps people are mistaking my recounting of the water in space theory for a earnest attempt to debunk the flood myth.