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Old 03-21-2018, 10:36 AM   #26
spanktehbadwookie
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to prove that 'souls' are a real thing...


It doesn't make any sense to prove one's own existent being because existing is the proof of being.

However, some may say that souls are more than simply being and that does beg for confirmation beyond their own soul which may very well 'be' whatever they say.

I have my own being to be, so I don't have time to prove it.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:56 AM   #27
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
The Bhagavad Gita is generally seen as being composed / written down around 400-200 BC.
My dates are questionable and I have to clarify that I am not advocating the Eastern or Oriental exegesis for during those times the conceptual approach of the Western Man was not present.

The ancient Indian had a "direct perception" of a supersensible world whereas in the West , as again, children of Socrates, we "think" with the intellect which has its beginning during the age of the Greeks from 700 BC to the 15th century.

The Buddha's existence was during the 6th century BC or around the time of Socrates.

I can't argue about of the date of the Bhagavad Gita but can say that this tome elucidates the change in the structural comprehension of mankind as Arjuna was hesitant to fight in war against his brothers and sisters and Krishna assures him of the proper way. In the Love of Arjuna for his people he is now placed at odds with them and in doing so , in this separation, he is in a sense "free" and "independent" of his prior mores. He goes to war.

The Eastern approach is not proper for Man of our age as the progression is to obtain comprehension of the spiritual world through science, yes science which through controlled thinking will make this jump to that which was directly perceived by the ancient Indian.

Even in the East the intellectual approach has taken hold and the many gods of that world are becoming abstracted in a western fashion even to the Eastern sage.

In the ancient times, for example in the western and eastern mystery centers spiritual comprehension was passed to the acolyte orally or he could be led to a direct experience . through the ages Man began to write and at some point in time we have the written verse. And so the Vedas were comprehended approximately 10000 years ago, continued to be passed on of added to until written during the times of the script.

A way of saying this is that the written books of the Vedas and Vedanta philosophy are a weak echo of that to which the ancient sage could comprehend through his supersensible comprehension which was directly consequential to the yoga.

An example of passing along of experiential knowledge in the West in Dionysus the Aeropagite. He is seen as a disciple/student of Paul, an Athenian and came to be known as the "Pseudo Dionysus" as the works associated with this man were written during the 6th century of our era. The leader of the mystery center was called the "Dionysus" in whom the structure of the original Dionysus was written during that late time.

Just for reference the periods of time are:

Present age
Greek-Roman 15th century to 700 BC
Egypto/Chaldean/Hebrew 2100 years
Persian (Zarathustra) 2100 years
Old Indian(Rishi's) 2100 years
The Atlantean Deluge

The numbers are of course approximate and are disjunctive points for the evolution of Man as he gains further powers through recurrent lives. As an understanding the Indian culture lived on into the Egyptian age when as we might have it the written script began to rise to its power.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:06 AM   #28
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Re: The immortality of the soul

Well, I don't know if I buy into all your beliefs - but it is certainly more than plausible that these ideas existed in verbal form or a more informal form long before they were written down, and nor do we of course hold a complete account of written works - things may have been lost.

But you do see a spike in the written mentions and musings regarding eternity / infinity in the 400-500 BC era of Greek and Indian thinkers, so I think it is at least safe to say that the idea really took hold in this period.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:38 AM   #29
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Well, I don't know if I buy into all your beliefs - but it is certainly more than plausible that these ideas existed in verbal form or a more informal form long before they were written down, and nor do we of course hold a complete account of written works - things may have been lost.

But you do see a spike in the written mentions and musings regarding eternity / infinity in the 400-500 BC era of Greek and Indian thinkers, so I think it is at least safe to say that the idea really took hold in this period.
You're right but only if one assumes that the "intellectual man" was always the "intellectual man" of today. During the times of ancient Greece as we know it, mankind developed the "intellect" and bubbles of this conceptual presentation comes about as we consider Aristotle the "Father of Logic" or even Abraham the "Father of Arithmetic".

This says to me that "logic" or "arithmetic" were non existent for all of mankind in previous times but for certain there were advanced individuals ahead of their times but that gets sticky.

When I say that the ancient Indian "experienced" the spiritual world, it was exactly that for to attempt to have this Indian "prove" the existence of the higher realms would have been met with a dumbfounded look as he didn't need nor knew what you meant by "proof" for he lived within that consciousness which is called "atavistic consciousness".

The ancient Indian , Persian, and Egyptian cultures had certainty because in their respective ways they lived within the spiritual worlds . They were not like us but as I've referenced many times they were us in our journey to release from this primitive atavism in order to hit the earth squarely only to return as "personalitied individuals" in "freedom" or freedom from that atavism to which there was no freedom.

Even the Greek in his thinking could see imaginative pictures, or the veneer of the spirit, in his intellectuality. Plato didn't see as we do but had a direct perception of that realm of "forms" to which he could peruse through proper thinking and thoughts.

The Romans, though imbued with the Greek spirit blocked and obfuscated the human sight of the spirit and we have the earth and earthly to which we believe to be the only reality. Of course out of Rome came the idea of the individual Roman Citizen which fit into the loss of an atavism which was the nature of the human soul.

There are a lot of roads each of which can add to the perception of Man's place in the cosmos.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:10 AM   #30
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie View Post
It doesn't make any sense to prove one's own existent being because existing is the proof of being.

However, some may say that souls are more than simply being and that does beg for confirmation beyond their own soul which may very well 'be' whatever they say.

I have my own being to be, so I don't have time to prove it.
I see, so you actually have an idea of how much time it would take to prove it then.... otherwise, how could you make the assessment that you don't have time. So, please, how long would it take?
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:51 PM   #31
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh View Post
I see, so you actually have an idea of how much time it would take to prove it then.... otherwise, how could you make the assessment that you don't have time. So, please, how long would it take?

How long does it take for one to assess existing presently? 350 seconds?
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:46 AM   #32
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Re: The immortality of the soul

Looks like the Pope realizes that the church has been wrong on this one for a long
time, as well.

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael...-there-no-hell

In another interview with his longtime atheist friend, Eugenio Scalfari, Pope Francis claims that Hell does not exist and that condemned souls just "disappear." This is a denial of the 2,000-year-old teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of Hell and the eternal existence of the soul.


[ I realize the Vatican is somewhat back-peddling on this one... I'm not surprised ]
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Old 03-30-2018, 11:00 AM   #33
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Re: The immortality of the soul

If souls dissapear, when condemned, where do they go?

What does dissapear mean?
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Old 03-30-2018, 11:43 AM   #34
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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If souls dissapear, when condemned, where do they go?

What does dissapear mean?


The theme that the Lord will annihilate the wicked is especially prominent in the Psalms. The Psalmist says that whereas those who take delight in the Lord shall be “like trees planted by streams of water” (1:3), the wicked shall be “like chaff that the wind drives away…the wicked will perish” (Ps. 1:4, 6). They shall be dashed “in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9), torn into fragments (Ps. 50:22) and “blotted out of the book of the living…” (Ps. 69:28, cf. Deut. 29:20). Each metaphor depicts total annihilation.

Similarly, the Lord’s plan for “evildoers” is to “cut off the remembrance of them from the earth…evil brings death to the wicked” (Ps. 34:16, 21). The wicked shall be so thoroughly destroyed that they shall not even be remembered (Ps. 9:6; 34:16). In the powerful words of a later author, the wicked “shall be as though they had never been” (Obed. 16, emphasis added).

With the same force, the Psalmist proclaimed that the wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there“ (Ps. 37:9–10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass [they shall] be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7–8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34). In short, the fate of the wicked is disintegration into nothingness.

http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:07 PM   #35
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The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by VeeDDzz` View Post
If souls dissapear, when condemned, where do they go?

What does dissapear mean?


It's interesting that for something to disappear it first must have appearance. Unless disappear is a euphemism for something else. But why not just say what it really means rather than rely on such an obvious language fallacy in that if such soul appeared we could simply point to it whenever anyone asked for proof. Since it doesn't appear, how can it disappear?
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:10 PM   #36
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
Looks like the Pope realizes that the church has been wrong on this one for a long
time, as well.

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael...-there-no-hell

In another interview with his longtime atheist friend, Eugenio Scalfari, Pope Francis claims that Hell does not exist and that condemned souls just "disappear." This is a denial of the 2,000-year-old teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of Hell and the eternal existence of the soul.


[ I realize the Vatican is somewhat back-peddling on this one... I'm not surprised ]
Far being it for me to buttress the Papacy but the bottom of the article states:

In a statement released on Mar. 29, after Scalfari's report garnered worldwide attention, the Vatican said:

"The Holy Father Francis recently received the founder of the newspaper La Repubblica in a private meeting on the occasion of Easter, without however giving him any interviews. What is reported by the author in today’s article [in La Repubblica] is the result of his reconstruction, in which the textual words pronounced by the Pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father."

This is something I can say of the present papacy and the Roman church. Each day, in the am, the Jesuit , through a meditation of will , brings before his eyes the idea of the earthly Jesus, fitting into his schema humanity and all that there is in this relegation.

This powerful meditation gives the Jesuit a strength of character not available to the normal man and in this is the "picture" of the "Generalissimo Jesus", the all powerful of the earth.

This Pope is a Jesuit , much admired for their intellectual prowess both Roman and otherwise, but in fitting to the present consciousness of the intellectual miasma of our times, in a certain way, deny the spiritual, even while giving credence to the same.

The secret societies, especially of English origin spread forth the idea "kill Rome" and they meant that, but its really moot, for at the time of the 15th century and the "age of reason" their idea of a political/powerful Rome was dying and is dead.

I don't trust the reporter , not because I stand tall with the pope but because he's a reporter and of all people who claim to think they are at the bottom of Dante's hell.

They (the reporter) only repeat what another says and when they enter subtleties or try to think they enter into a realm to which , on the whole, they
can and often display an abject impotence.

The battle between the papacy and the secret societies is recent in history (15th century) and the warriors of the papacy, who pledge unabashed allegiance to the Pope, are the Jesuits. there are other orders of the Roman church who are not so strident in this manner.

For some reason, without cause, I do remember hearing of the Cistercians, the white robed monks as being a most insightful order in thought and deed.

https://www.virginiatrappists.org/hi...ercians-order/
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:52 PM   #37
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Re: The immortality of the soul

Just for clarity these are the responses to the nature of the soul by Aquinas, who is by statement the philosopher of the Roman church, that to which the Pope is in leadership.

"The soul communicates that existence in which it subsists to the corporeal matter, out of which and the intellectual soul there results unity of existence; so that the existence of the whole composite is also the existence of the soul. This is not the case with other non-subsistent forms. For this reason the human soul retains its own existence after the dissolution of the body; whereas it is not so with other forms.

Reply to Objection 6. To be united to the body belongs to the soul by reason of itself, as it belongs to a light body by reason of itself to be raised up. And as a light body remains light, when removed from its proper place, retaining meanwhile an aptitude and an inclination for its proper place; so the human soul retains its proper existence when separated from the body, having an aptitude and a natural inclination to be united to the body."

Matters are more variegated than easy thinking would like, and comprehension of the above is worth it, and then ask whether the report has any meaning other than sensationalism .
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Old 03-31-2018, 04:12 AM   #38
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Re: The immortality of the soul

In the beginning there was only chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, darkness. Then somehow Love was born bringing a start of order. From Love came Light and Day. Once there was Light and Day, Gaea, the earth appeared.

Is this the creation myths thread? I may be lost.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:48 PM   #39
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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If you were never conceived

and you were conceived a month later

would it have been a different being with a different soul?

ANd if so, how is it possible that there are infinite potential souls? Where do these souls come from?

"If you were never conceived

and you were conceived a month later"

Huh ?
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:14 PM   #40
Toe Jam and Earl
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
I'm breaking this out into a new thread, because I think it deserves it's
own discussion.

I contend that according to Scripture, the soul of man is inherently mortal,
and it is only the gift of God that some are given immortality, the
rest will be punished at death, and will eventually be destroyed
(annihilated).


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son,
that whosoever believes on him would not PERISH but have everlasting life
(immortality).

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH (not eternal conscious torment)
but the gift of God is eternal life (immortality) through Jesus Christ our Lord
Those verses are synonyms for the eternal punishments of hell.

John 3:16 - "Perish" here means a spiritual death, or a loss of the eternal life in heaven we were meant for. It doesn't mean the very specific "annihilation".

Matthew 10:28 - Again this is a spiritual death. Jesus is using this language to keep the disciples focused on the goal of heaven instead of hell. It is only meant to contrast physical death.

Romans 6:23 - Again "death" is spiritual, a ruination of the soul, not annihilation. Eternal life is not simply immortality, but a life in the presence of God where we will see him as he is eternally.


Tell me what you think of Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says the unrighteous will go away to eternal punishment. I don't see how you can view that verse any other way than an eternal hell.


Lastly, the idea that the soul is inherently mortal is flawed given your arguments that Hell is the annihilation of the soul. If they are inherently mortal, they would not need annihilation from God, they would simply cease to exist.

Souls are immortal and will spend eternity in 1 of 2 places/states.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:00 AM   #41
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Those verses are synonyms for the eternal punishments of hell.

John 3:16 - "Perish" here means a spiritual death, or a loss of the eternal life in heaven we were meant for. It doesn't mean the very specific "annihilation".

Matthew 10:28 - Again this is a spiritual death. Jesus is using this language to keep the disciples focused on the goal of heaven instead of hell. It is only meant to contrast physical death.

Romans 6:23 - Again "death" is spiritual, a ruination of the soul, not annihilation. Eternal life is not simply immortality, but a life in the presence of God where we will see him as he is eternally.


Tell me what you think of Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says the unrighteous will go away to eternal punishment. I don't see how you can view that verse any other way than an eternal hell.


Lastly, the idea that the soul is inherently mortal is flawed given your arguments that Hell is the annihilation of the soul. If they are inherently mortal, they would not need annihilation from God, they would simply cease to exist.

Souls are immortal and will spend eternity in 1 of 2 places/states.
The word used for "eternal" in Matthew 25:46 is also used in these places,
and is used not to mean that the act is happening over and over for
eternity, but that the results of the action last forever:

eternal judgement - Hebrews 6:2 (not judging over and over)
eternal sin - Mark 3:29 (not a sin that is done over and over for ever)
eternal redemption - Hebrews 9:12 (a one time redemption who's results last forever)
eternal salvation - Hebrews 5:9 (not a saving happening over and over)
eternal inheritance - Hebrews 9:15 (not inheriting over and over)

So... in that light, eternal punishment is a one-time punishment, that lasts eternally.

http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2014/0...orment-part-1/
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:05 AM   #42
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by Toe Jam and Earl View Post
Those verses are synonyms for the eternal punishments of hell.

John 3:16 - "Perish" here means a spiritual death, or a loss of the eternal life in heaven we were meant for. It doesn't mean the very specific "annihilation".

Matthew 10:28 - Again this is a spiritual death. Jesus is using this language to keep the disciples focused on the goal of heaven instead of hell. It is only meant to contrast physical death.

Romans 6:23 - Again "death" is spiritual, a ruination of the soul, not annihilation. Eternal life is not simply immortality, but a life in the presence of God where we will see him as he is eternally.

You do nothing to back up your statements here. Everything you say
is just your opinion. You distort the main and plain meaning of Matthew
10:28, it means exactly what it says.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:06 PM   #43
Toe Jam and Earl
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
The word used for "eternal" in Matthew 25:46 is also used in these places,
and is used not to mean that the act is happening over and over for
eternity, but that the results of the action last forever:

eternal judgement - Hebrews 6:2 (not judging over and over)
eternal sin - Mark 3:29 (not a sin that is done over and over for ever)
eternal redemption - Hebrews 9:12 (a one time redemption who's results last forever)
eternal salvation - Hebrews 5:9 (not a saving happening over and over)
eternal inheritance - Hebrews 9:15 (not inheriting over and over)

So... in that light, eternal punishment is a one-time punishment, that lasts eternally.

http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2014/0...orment-part-1/

The problem with this line of reasoning, is that we know what the punishment is; it is an unquenchable eternal fire, where the worm does not die. Just 5 verses prior Jesus speaks these words, "...You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..."
Likewise, the below passages are all warnings of the eternal fire.
Rev 20:10
Mark 9:43-48
Matt 18:8
Luke 3:17

Why warn of eternal fire if your punishment isn't eternal? In addition, Revelation 14:11 details the eternal torment that will be experienced in the eternal fire.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:17 PM   #44
Toe Jam and Earl
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
You do nothing to back up your statements here. Everything you say
is just your opinion. You distort the main and plain meaning of Matthew
10:28, it means exactly what it says.
Let me ask a follow up question. If you believe that in Matt 10:28 Destroy means to annihilate, such that an unsaved sinner no longer exists body and soul, why would they be given a body after their physical earthly death simply to have it destroyed again? Why would God not simply annihilate their soul and be done with them?
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:09 PM   #45
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
The Bhagavad Gita is generally seen as being composed / written down around 400-200 BC.

But yes, based on written evidence, Indian thinkers and mathematicians were indeed among the first to tinker with the ideas of eternity / infinity.
Hinduism / Vedism dates back much further than mere 400 BC. The Rigveda is the first Indo-European text composed and dates between the domestication of horses (4000 BC) and the Iron Age in South Asia (1500 BC). I'm not sure if it contains the concept of infinite, but the Yajurveda sure does, and it dates between 1200 BC and 1000 BC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_large_numbers
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