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Old 03-13-2018, 10:02 PM   #1
festeringZit
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The immortality of the soul

I'm breaking this out into a new thread, because I think it deserves it's
own discussion.

I contend that according to Scripture, the soul of man is inherently mortal,
and it is only the gift of God that some are given immortality, the
rest will be punished at death, and will eventually be destroyed
(annihilated).


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son,
that whosoever believes on him would not PERISH but have everlasting life
(immortality).

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH (not eternal conscious torment)
but the gift of God is eternal life (immortality) through Jesus Christ our Lord
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:14 PM   #2
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Re: The immortality of the soul

souls could be fragments of a larger soul

or existence may be an alien simulator. how could someone possibly know the difference?
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:02 AM   #3
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Re: The immortality of the soul

The what now?

Let's talk about immortal fairies instead, there's more evidence that those actually exist. I've seen photos.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:57 PM   #4
Bill Haywood
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Re: The immortality of the soul

Thank you. Glad to know my torment in Hell will not be permanent.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:35 PM   #5
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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The what now?

Let's talk about immortal fairies instead, there's more evidence that those actually exist. I've seen photos.
But yet you worship at the altar of Daniel Dennett who doesn't
even believe that people are conscious.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:40 PM   #6
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Re: The immortality of the soul

You'd prefer to be immortal?

To live every positive experience imaginable eternally?

I can't think of a worse hell.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:53 PM   #7
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Re: The immortality of the soul

Soooo. You align yourself with Latter Day Sainthood? Eternal conscious torment=spiritual death. The second death as it is described in the scriptures. Christ is King, and his Word is Truth, being proclaimed from everlasting to everlasting.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:46 PM   #8
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Re: The immortality of the soul

If speaking of morality then this can only refer to human death, or that which is earth bound. In this respect only Man dies and enters into the spiritual world or that to which death has no hold. Hearken back to the beginnings in which the "wages of sin is death" and in this Man will be "like us" and gain knowledge of good and evil.

You could say that the soul goes through death but in so doing the soul enters into the soul realm or that to which time and space have no part. That is the entry into the spiritual world.

If one says that the soul is physical(nervous system) as does Dennett, then it can logically be said that this entity will be destroyed, or at least fall to ashes and into the dust of the earth.

The soul is ensconced within sympathies and antipathies which speaks to the activities of thinking, feeling and willing.

If a man is antipathetic to the outer or inner then he separates himself from that entity in an egoistic manner. this is a root of egoism which may border or enter into the realm of "evil" in which one separates one's self from the world and all it is.

This separation correspondingly is causal to an individual identity or the personality of Man. In this separation we enter into the realm of "freedom", a good transformed out of an apparent "evil". This "freedom" is actually a separation from our spiritual home, or that to which we have fallen as per referenced scripture.

Prior to the "Fall" we were within the world of spirit but without this "identity" and it could, and will be said that death has no hold on us before the "Fall". The religious have all (Hebrew, Greek, Hindu,Zoraster,Egyptian, Babylonian,...) have in some measure worked and toiled to return to that world from which we have fallen.

It could be said and should be said that because of the intervention of "Lucifer" and his minions whose purpose is to separate Man from his home he in some way has brought "freedom" to man. In this "freedom" we display individuality and we are now entering into the "return", as individual, in deliberate and telling means.

The "soul" in the experiencing of the earthly and spiritual in evolutionary Man had brought the organism of Man to a state of tethers and tears such that the nadir of evolutionary man was reached during the Roman times. If mankind had continued this progression into Dante's hell there would be no return and Man would have continued as a being without perception and knowledge of his home, lost in space and time. Knowledge of the "real" or the "spiritual" would have been forgone.

The ancients, Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, and the Indian knew of the Christ Being and knew of His coming and were able to approach Him in the mystery centers of the ancient peoples. But this was a methodology of individual advanced men, who brought the gladdening news to the people of the race.

Man had fallen and at the exact time the Christ Being entered into the organism of Jesus of Nazareth, a man, and went through Death to which only man could previously do and entered into the "souls" of All Men as Spirit of the Earth who now leads Man back to his home, as individually.

This is not commandments but more as a guide to the future of man. We do this by learning of the Christ Being and in Christ Knowledge we morph into a new refurbished being of individual man. There is no coercion and as "free" men we transform the earth as its appointed realm or the "planet of Love".

There is no "death" in this future world here for it has been overcome (from the earthly perspective) by the Christ Being who stands as the template for the future of Man. The Greece/Roman epoch lasted from about 700+ B.C. to the 15th century and the past will not change for it is fixed in necessity and we were all within that time period at our respective earthly homes during that time.

We have a lot to learn and by the way the 'sympathies" to which the soul lives within are manifested in which we give up our individuality in order for the "other " to speak. In the sympathetic look at the world we see ourselves as the "other" or another way of saying it is you are your neighbor and you are your enemy which is the transformative nature of Love, or in the real the "soul is Love".

Bye the bye, in the spiritual world there is no death but metamorphosis in which the spirit being is transformative into another . An earthly conception of this is Goethe's idea of metamorphosis in the plant kingdom in we have the root, stem, leaves flower, and fruit, seed and return . One cannot say that the root causes the stem or the stem causes the leaf but this is a scientifically discovered , through thinking, factual(s) of the plant kingdom but not with a microscope; but that is another story.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:51 PM   #9
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by VeeDDzz` View Post
You'd prefer to be immortal?

To live every positive experience imaginable eternally?

I can't think of a worse hell.
I think I'd die of boredom. Immortality is overrated. Living like a rockstar is far superior. The music, the women, the drugs, the following...need i say more?
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:58 PM   #10
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Re: The immortality of the soul

Living like a rockstar IS living in heaven.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:32 PM   #11
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Living like a rockstar IS living in heaven.
Then why do so many of them commit suicide or die from overdoses of drugs?
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:34 PM   #12
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by VeeDDzz` View Post
You'd prefer to be immortal?

To live every positive experience imaginable eternally?

I can't think of a worse hell.
Being immortal but does necessarily entail living every positive experience imaginable.

Epic logic fail.
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:55 AM   #13
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Re: The immortality of the soul

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that 'souls' are a real thing...
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:05 AM   #14
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Being immortal but does necessarily entail living every positive experience imaginable.

Epic logic fail.
And an epic "trying to write a coherent sentence in English" fail on my part!

My gibberish should have read: "Being immortal does not necessarily entail living every positive experience imaginable."
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Old 03-17-2018, 01:52 PM   #15
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Re: The immortality of the soul

Quote:
Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
I'm breaking this out into a new thread, because I think it deserves it's
own discussion.

I contend that according to Scripture, the soul of man is inherently mortal,
and it is only the gift of God that some are given immortality, the
rest will be punished at death, and will eventually be destroyed
(annihilated).


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son,
that whosoever believes on him would not PERISH but have everlasting life
(immortality).

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH (not eternal conscious torment)
but the gift of God is eternal life (immortality) through Jesus Christ our Lord
Since you're not getting any bites, I'll play along. How do you deal with Revelations 20:10-15:

Quote:
Revelations 20:10-15
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:01 PM   #16
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Since you're not getting any bites, I'll play along. How do you deal with Revelations 20:10-15:
The advocates of what is often called these days conditional immorality believe that both the body and soul of unrepentent sinners are completely destroyed in the Lake of Fire. These verses describe the transfer of the unsaved dead from Hell to the Lake of Fire.

I believe verse 10 only refers to Satan and his angels, not to unsaved people.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:09 PM   #17
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Soooo. You align yourself with Latter Day Sainthood?
I didn't know that this was the LDS position. I do know that Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists hold to this view. Even the great Protestant theologian John Stott was sympathetic to this view late in his life.
Quote:
Eternal conscious torment=spiritual death. The second death as it is described in the scriptures. Christ is King, and his Word is Truth, being proclaimed from everlasting to everlasting.
+1
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:57 PM   #18
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Then why do so many of them commit suicide or die from overdoses of drugs?
Because they have accomplished everything that their little cocaine induced arrythmic hearts desired.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:54 AM   #19
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Because they have accomplished everything that their little cocaine induced arrythmic hearts desired.
Okay, thanks.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:48 PM   #20
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
The advocates of what is often called these days conditional immorality believe that both the body and soul of unrepentent sinners are completely destroyed in the Lake of Fire. These verses describe the transfer of the unsaved dead from Hell to the Lake of Fire.

I believe verse 10 only refers to Satan and his angels, not to unsaved people.
Yeah... this verse refers to: devil, beast and false prophet. No mention
of the eternal torment of unsaved sinners at all.

And, I would tend not to make a doctrine about a vision that John saw, that
disagrees with the rest of Scripture.
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:07 PM   #21
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Because they have accomplished everything that their little cocaine induced arrythmic hearts desired.
I was going to say something along these lines but you've covered it better than I would've.

Some of them probably get depressed too, but for good reason. The higher you fly, the further you have to fall. Cant judge since I've never been that high or fallen that far.

The religious can judge. And they do.
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:38 PM   #22
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Re: The immortality of the soul

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Even the great Protestant theologian John Stott was sympathetic to this view late in his life.
+1
You'd be surprised how many Protestant theologians are moving to this position.

Also, Stott wasn't just sympathetic to annihilationism, it was his position.


'Some Christian denominations which are annihilationist were influenced by the Millerite/Adventist movement of the mid-19th century. These include the Seventh-day Adventists, Bible Students, Christadelphians and the various Advent Christian churches. Additionally, the Church of England's Doctrine Commission reported in 1995 that "[h]ell is not eternal torment", but "non-being"'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:40 AM   #23
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Re: The immortality of the soul

It also bears note that the concept of eternity / infinity seems to be younger than Abrahamic religion. We this concept in philosophical and mathematical writings first in 400-500 years BC.

That isn't to say it didn't exist before, we can't know history exactly, but there is definitely a moment in documented time where it seems to progress as a concept. It's not a stretch to think that this in turn influenced theology.

The Torah / old testament also seems to operate mainly with finite time-scales if we go by direct words, while in the NT we start seeing clear mentions of eternity / infinity.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 03-21-2018 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:47 AM   #24
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Re: The immortality of the soul

From another part of the world (California), ; The Vedas and Vedanta philosophy are of ancient origin , and passed orally or experienced by the sage and written during the Egyptian period or about 4000 years ago . The origin of the immortal soul as concept or comprehended is noted in this thread.

https://vedanta.org/2012/monthly-rea...soul-immortal/

If an point is time is needed the source of the Vedas and Vedanta philosophy is approximately 10,000 years ago, the age of the holy Rishi's in the Old Indian period or the first post Atlantean period.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:11 AM   #25
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Re: The immortality of the soul

The Bhagavad Gita is generally seen as being composed / written down around 400-200 BC.

But yes, based on written evidence, Indian thinkers and mathematicians were indeed among the first to tinker with the ideas of eternity / infinity.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 03-21-2018 at 10:24 AM.
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