you're making the right point to the wrong person.

So you would admit that the intrinsic value of human life you speak of is finite at best?

Don't you believe in life after death? If that's the case then what's the problem with leaving this life on earth where humans are exposed to pain, suffering, disease, etc, in favor of infinite bliss in heaven? If a child is supposed to be paralyzed for life and require constant medical attention for the next 50 years , aren't you doing him a favor by sending him directly to Jesus?

I don't get one point... Those who claim to believe in life after death don't seem to act that way, clinging on to their life and constantly try to tell others that abortion is wrong. If you actually believe that life does not end on earth but rather is just a beginning, then what's the big deal?

I am also divided on the issue of pro life / pro choice. I think it is just hard to strike the balance in these two. Overall I think that abortion should be allowed if a valid reasons are presented.

bull****... Do you think that generally women don't have pretty good reasons to have an abortion and make the decision lightly?

Also less than 1.5% of abortions in US occur after 21 weeks of gestation. The fetus most likely is not even cabable of feeling pain at that point.

Did I say that majority of them don't have good reasons? I am talking about instances where for example it's a 6-7th month of pregnancy and a women decides she just don't feel like continuing it anymore. She has money, supporting family(/husband/parents/etc), no health risks, etc... in that case do you think that a woman should be allowed to do an abortion just because she is a quitter?

I am pretty sure this practically happens never.

as the saying goes, never say never.. my point is, that it's not a clear cut pro choice or pro life for me... there are instances where I will be pro choice and sometimes where i am pro life...

Meeh... I guess there might be some marginal situations, but I wouldn't really consider it to be that big of a deal if it did happen.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, no?

Wouldn't aborted fetuses get a free pass to heaven? Seems to me that the abortionists are doing these souls a favour. Getting them really young before they can come into the world and start sinning.

Of course not. If such a device existed we wouldn't have gotten to enjoy the pleasure of reading your posts.

I don't think it's that simple. If for example the child was born and was only then diagnosed with some horrible illness that would make his/her life almost impossible, I would fully support euthanasia. Of course lines are useful to prevent abuse, but I think they can also be quite arbitary.

I agree.. that is why I don't understand why believers criticize abortion so easily...

If i knew that there is life after death and heaven and hell exists and all babies go to heaven then I WOULD rather want my child to go to heaven then "god forbid" start thinking on it's own and become an atheist and end up like me in hell.. lol.. not like heaven sounds like a great place to spend eternity in , but definitely better then being boiled in hot water for eternity or having your skin put on fire...

Draw it where doctors decide that an abortion is too dangerous for the health of the mother imo.

There were also pictures of sperm and egg cells. We were also taught (well, not in med school, but in high school) that 'life' is not a well-defined term.

I figured you'd respond with this while I was in the shower after making my post.

What is the point of your comparison? Are you afraid allowing abortions will lead to a genocide? Are you saying that pro-choicers are as evil as genociders? What is it that you are actually trying to show?

*post made while under the influence of an anti-histamine drug. I'm almost ready to denounce God, for who would make a system where the same chemical mediates allergic responses and also keeps you awake?

I'm Catholic and I am the opposite. Every abortion is just one less Democrat imo. Nits make lice.

so at what stage of pregnancy do you propose a mother no longer can take this decision into her own hands(pills, etc)?

Thats an interesting point. I guess if everyone agrees on a moral stance then there isn't much to talk about. All sane people agree that mass murder is wrong. For morally ambiguous issues I think we need to leave as much freedom of choice as possible. Because that it's my point, not whether abortion is wrong, but that the issue is uncertain enough that we need to be careful about imposing our own morality on others.

As far as which trimester and all that, I don't really know. The earlier the better, I guess. I remember Cartman's mom trying to get an abortion in the fortieth trimester.

As far as life after death, well, I'm just not a very good catholic. I want to live by the tenets of the bible because I can see they are right and good. But my faith in the supernatural is weak. Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow, so I don't. If there is heaven then I hope I get in.

There are people who will disagree on this , including me.

Perhaps I pick and choose too much to be considered a true catholic (or even christian)by other catholics. But the most important thing is love and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Heretic means 'chooser'. I'm Catholic and stick by the tenets of the Church but you are right, love is the most important thing.

If you honestly have thought about the beliefs of the Church and strongly believe they are false it would be wrong to choose them.

I only ask that you think about not receiving Eucharist out of respect for the beliefs of the Church - one must believe everything the Catholic Church teaches and be in the state of grace to receive the Eucharist, etc. Otherwise by taking the Eucharist you are lying to yourself and to God, claiming to believe in all the Church teaches.

How do you know love is the most important one? Where does it state that in the bible? Are you talking here about unconditional love? I wish GOD was following his own rules as well.. I mean if he would claim that all will be saved at the end, atheists, agnostics, muslims, christians, etc. and all will end up in some eternal bliss forever , not needing to worship him or praise him. Unfortunately, that's not the case, he will only love those who blindly accept him and the others? the hell with others..

1 Cor 13: And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

too bad God doesn't follow those commands..he likes to be a hypocrite

.. what about this quote? "You should not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

not a very loving message.. is it? or this one..

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

one more example of love..

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

I rarely go to church anyway. And it's impossible to find a confessional these days. But I am a believer. I just struggle like everyone else. But I'm not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater