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Originally Posted by Jack 0' Clubs
That is true in many ways, although I think cancer is a more apposite analogy than a cyst.
What, that they're both foreign, malignant and harmful objects?
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Originally Posted by bunny
You seem to be following the common anti-abortion tactic of ascribing to me the view that all abortions are moral.
You didn't ask for a defence of 'universal abortions' you asked for the best reason I have to be pro-choice and it's as I stated it above. If the abortion is going to hurt someone then the woman is obligated to take that into consideration when making her decision, just like her right to park wherever she wants is constrained if someone is asleep in her desired parking space. I don't consider a fetus alive - that's the point of difference between me and an anti-abortion advocate. We likely agree that the father's interests deserve respect.
Therein lies a major problem. The ones that do consider it life would say the abortion does a lot of harm, discounting the emotional harm done to the father, as well as the social harm done to the family unit.
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Originally Posted by Turn Prophet
This is the ultimate free rider problem. Men have to contribute basically nothing to the pregnancy process, which is a tremendously risky and health-altering condition and process, even with modern medicine. Women, and their bodies, do all the substantive work, so the right belongs to them and them alone.
The man's real contribution comes predominantly after the pregnancy, but also during pregnancy in the form of social, moral and financial support. Obviously the guy that can't do anything during labour except for holding her hand and boosting morale.
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Originally Posted by Turn Prophet
What your position stipulates is that men can make women their indentured servants for nine months (or longer).
Then you've grossly misunderstood my position.
Strong and/or wrong language. Indentured servitude is a contractual labour (not that kind of labour) agreement between employer and employee. What led you to think that I ever framed the relationship b/w the parents like such? You can't even frame that as a fiduciary relationship, barring obtuse examples involving sperm donors in which case the child would be treated as some kind of property or commodity.
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Originally Posted by Turn Prophet
No, it really does. If I write an entire report and you just gave me the pen, did you do 50% of the work? There is a hell of a lot more than just "squeezing it out," and I think you're either misinformed, or you're being disingenuous.
You've effectively relegated the role of the male to that of a seeder and nothing more by the incongruous pen analogy.
Exactly, which is why the father's role and involvement is so very important. Evolution probably says that the best strategy for the male is fire-and-forget strafing runs across many fertile fields, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you were thinking from that point of view when you thought the father doesn't do anything besides supplying the equipment.
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Originally Posted by gg911gg
No, you misunderstood me (and I wasn't clear enough). I meant that a lot of people would be pissed off if abortion was criminalized. I suspect there would be more of them and they would be more angry than the groups that actively oppose abortion right now, so from this standpoint it would create more social unrest. But that is just my guess for which I don't have any proofs.
Oh, okay. Well, I'm sure we would see a ton of protesting and lots of weeks of news headlines about it.
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Originally Posted by gg911gg
But as I said, the best argument why I think it's not reasonable to criminalize abortion is that I dont see any good reasons to do so.
Then what are all of the bad ones? Social unrest is one apparent reason.
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Originally Posted by FBandit
Why?
Um.. The father's role biologically, socially, morally, financially etc.? Liek, duh?
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Originally Posted by FBandit
Cool, so who exactly is going to take care of the thousands of orphans?
I'm in the favour of the government doing that. Let's not get into the politics of that one here.
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Originally Posted by FBandit
On abortion at least, yes. A woman is risking and losing much more when a man forces her to have a child then a man does when a woman decides to have an abortion against his will. She does all the work before the child is born, and often even after that.
Oh, I see we're being completely impartial and objective here. What you're saying is... I don't know how else to put this gently... lolbad.
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Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse
A more crucial point is the fact that children without authority figures most commonly in the form of a father are at greater risk for criminality and anti-social tendencies. Yes, there's a correlation between increased abortion rates and decreased criminal rates. The likely explanation behind the scenes is that the overwhelming majority of those mother's who've aborted did not have the father or some other familial paternal figure present in their lives.
This does not mean, however, that abortion is a possible solution to decreasing crime or some other nonsense. I... sincerely hope that's not what you were implicitly suggesting. Still, it's a far cry from saying abortion helps prevent a cause for social unrest.
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Originally Posted by babalooo
How often does someone change their personal opinion after confronted with facts that show the exact opposite? My guess is not as often as we might think... I bet this hardball character will come out of this lengthy discussion completely unchanged, still bearing the same ideas and principles as he did before he got here.
While all of us feel the strong urge to extend our personal opinions / knowledge to other people, nobody really cares about what the opposing party has to say. Only people that have learned to criticize themselves and to always be open to new knowledge can do that, but it is obvious that when someone has a borderline "fanatic" bond with their opinion, releasing the grasp on it is quite impossible.
This is coming from a guy who gets his opinions on important matters from comedians? lol
You just can't make this stuff up.