Do you know what a fetus and a random ethopian have in common? Unless they are killed before you arrive you can move thru space time and meet a person.

I am not sure this is clear at all. If I cut my finger of and most of it's cells are still alive, is it a new and distinct organism? Is the cut off finger my identical twin?

Anyone (theist or atheist) who thinks that being alive is a crucial point is driving himself into a corner. Terri Schiavo was "alive", but only an idiot would have insisted that she should be kept alive. A mosquito is alive and yet we do not feel especially guilty or immorall if we happen to kill one.

Yeah, true, unless they starve to death, die of AIDS that was transmitted to them by their mother, aren't abandoned after birth and a line of other nice things, you will eventually meet a person.

Are you willing to commit yourself that you'll help as much as you can, to a reasonable degree, of course?

So where does this "new and distinct organism" that is your cut off finger go when the doctor re-attaches it to your hand?

Many itt eat much more complex organisms that possess almost certainly higher awareness and capacity for suffering than a human fetus. What makes human fetuses so magical that they deserve attention that these other beings don’t?

lol

I am glad you got the point.

My individual actions are of no consequence. I'm sure you with some effort would be able to both commit murder and make a rational argument that murder is wrong. The fact that you are a murderer would have no bearing on the veracity of your argument murder is wrong.

Stu. What if we had a machine that could grow the cut off finger into a human being? Would it be wrong to not let it be born?

It would be wrong to kill the human being in the machine. Now in order to know when the severed fingers becomes a distinct human being I would need to understand how the machine works. Can you post the blueprints in PDF?

You aren't really addressing the issue I'm raising here. I am not asking for your defense of your pro-life views. My claim is that the disagreement over the morality of abortion is not clearly addressed in the Bible. The disagreement over the morality of abortion is typically understood to be over when we should regard the fetus as having a right to life (although there are other issues). Some people say at conception, some at viability, some when it has the capacity to feel pain, some at birth, some at self-consciousness, etc. My question is, assuming that I'm correct that the Bible is silent on this point, why do a higher proportion of evangelicals accept the conception viewpoint? Simply saying that it is the correct view is not an explanation unless we have a reason to think that evangelicals are more likely to accept correct views. But then, what is this reason?

Why? You don't seem to have any problem declaring that one becomes a distinct human being at conception, even though I suspect you don't understand the biology behind the process.

I murder somebody. Ergo, I personally terminate someone's life. I should be punished accordingly.

I stop an abortion. Ergo, I personally save an unborn and condemn it to live. If he/she is unwanted, I'd be a total arse if I didn't take the responsibility for him/her, b/c I'm the reason he/she's here. For me it works the same way you'd expect parents to take care of their kids. Whoever is responsible, should take up their responsibility.

People claiming sperm or severed fingers are distinct organisms have a poorer understanding of biology than I do.

What does any of this have to do with the validity of the arguments being made? Let me give you some advice, when all you can do is attempt to be critical of the man instead of his argument its time to re-think your position.

Not important. I don't particularly care when one becomes a distinct organisms but it seems important to your position.

I find it baffling that anyone thinks they can pass a definitive law on abortion when no one has ever been able to agree on when life begins.

Historical Views of When Human Life Begins, Plato's view, Aristotle's view, Islam's view, Christianity's view, Judaism's view, etc. The one thing there isn't is an agreement on when life begins:
http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162

Also I recently heard someone lamenting over the under funding of the Medicare and Social Security system and blaming it on the allowing of abortions. They said "what would you expect to happen to government programs when you are no longer producing enough people to work and pay into the system" or something to that effect. It makes you really think about the long range consequences of abortion when you hear something like that.

It's quite simple really. I'm calling prolifers ignorant to the reality of what their demands would lead to. And I expect them to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. If you say you work for an orphanage or something and you are a prolifer, I'd start to give respect to your position. But alas, you're simply willing to impose your morality. Your arguments are not enough, life only begins with birth, and if you are responsible for this life, you should also take care of it.


Mind you, I'm isolating right now, I've surely stated earlier what I find morally wrong about pro life, be it directly or not.

We both agree enslaving an african villiage is an assault against their humanity.

Isn't the burden on you to show the act of buying your child a toy instead of feeding an African village an assault against their humanity? Surely you would agree that if I am attacking their humanity I must be making their lot worse. But how am I making their lot worse by buying my child a toy? Their lot would be the same as if I had no money to spend on a toy or feeding the village.

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Today over half of black babies (52%) are murdered in the womb. The African American population is now in decline with birth rates too low to replace themselves. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnjCUVgW0hc).

The founder of Planned Parenthood Margaret Sanger said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." (http://www.blackgenocide.org/planned.html)

What I don't understand is that if you are willing to kill some human beings so that you don't have to take care of them, why not kill all the destitute? Sally struther says spend a few cents each and evryday to feed a starving child. Why aren't you advocating spending a few cents just once for a bullet to put in the starving child's head?

If you did that I would think you to be a monster, but I'd have to respect you for being consistent in you treatment of the poor and starving.

A guy has five kids and is spending all his time and money on xbox games, but it really isn't a problem you know. You see, the children’s lot would be the same as if he had no money or time on xbox games or spending money or time on his kids.

I'd say the guy was morally wrong for shirking his parental responsibilities.

So why don't you have responsibility for the poor ethiopian orphans if their human value is the same as your own children?

If you an I have identical cars with the exact same value, is it my responsibility to make sure you change the oil on schedule?

You guys think that just because I value the every human beings humanity equally that it imposes on me a responsibility to provide equal care for every human being.

I am simply giving a choice to a human being, i.e., the mother. I really don't like it. In fact, I think that I'll become an emotional trainwreck, if I were the father. But it's not my body. A zygote is not a human being, human life begins at birth. (I think we've already established that we'll not come in terms about this.)

It is not my regulations that forced a child to ber born. If it's born in mysery, tough luck, buddy, but don't blame me for that. But if you think that my ass could have done more for you, you are allowed to be pissed off at me. Just like I wouldn't hold it against you for being pissed off at the people who've criminalised abortion and you are directly affected by it in 15-20 years time.

Edit: Cuz the Vatican said "No condoms." and you and your girl/guy got possessed by the devil.