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Old 01-10-2019, 09:53 PM   #76
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by craig1120 View Post
An unsolved or I would say un-revealed contradiction seems about right. This is not something I think about much and am speculating/extrapolating. What captures my attention at this point in my life is the actual process of development rather than the insights that are revealed. Honestly I am skeptical when anyone wants to discuss God.
Okay
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:58 PM   #77
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Honestly I am skeptical when anyone wants to discuss God.
In what sense are you skeptical and how does that skepticism play out in your ability (or inability/willingness/unwillingness) to discuss God?
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:10 PM   #78
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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In what sense are you skeptical and how does that skepticism play out in your ability (or inability/willingness/unwillingness) to discuss God?
Itís because the faith centered narrative is where itís at, and the god centered narrative often dominates attention. While the god centered narrative can be an entry point into the faith narrative, it is usually a hindrance.

I am speaking at the individual level though. At the cultural level, the god centered narrative had to lead. Itís based in my desire for people to make that necessary transition from the cultural to the individual.

But itís me projecting, itís a ďleakĒ, and youíre right to point it out.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:34 AM   #79
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
Logic being a mutable or non-existent property of the universe makes as much sense as a circle being square...none.
not an argument
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:34 AM   #80
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Ah but god is the one being we can safely say doesn't have free will A perfect being can do no other than be perfect.
How can we "safely" say that God doesn't have free will. Why couldn't there be several options at God's disposal that would all classify as "perfect"?

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Honestly I think modern theists have made life hard for themselves by claiming god as perfect, I much prefer the gods of the roman or Greeks who were much more human and flawed. So much easier to explain everything with those gods.
Often pursuing the truth leads us to situations that are "hard", and to conclusions that we may not "prefer", but are nonetheless true.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:08 PM   #81
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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not an argument
Correct it's not an argument. To make an argument you need to use logic.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:40 PM   #82
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Correct it's not an argument. To make an argument you need to use logic.
The problem is that you've continually used ill-defined concepts. What do you mean when you say that a property is "immutable"?

For example, according to how you've defined things, neeel is an immutable part of the universe, because if he didn't exist, then the universe (as we currently know it) wouldn't exist. Is that the same concept of immutability that you mean here, or is that a different thing?

Furthermore, if neeel is being illogical, then illogic is a property of part of the universe, and is hence a property of the universe itself, so that the universe is illogical. This would also contradict the immutability claim (at least, as I understand the term immutable).

So mostly, I think you're spouting off nonsense but it's nonsense because you're not taking the time to actually think carefully about what you're saying. You're in state where you think that simply asserting and reasserting your claims is going to make progress for you, which is never really a good sign.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:59 PM   #83
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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The problem is that you've continually used ill-defined concepts. What do you mean when you say that a property is "immutable"?
Inherent.

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For example, according to how you've defined things, neeel is an immutable part of the universe, because if he didn't exist, then the universe (as we currently know it) wouldn't exist. Is that the same concept of immutability that you mean here, or is that a different thing?
I'd say the same. Neeel is an inherent part of the universe.

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Furthermore, if neeel is being illogical, then illogic is a property of part of the universe, and is hence a property of the universe itself, so that the universe is illogical. This would also contradict the immutability claim (at least, as I understand the term immutable).
I dont think neeel being illogical is an inherent part of neeel. He has the ability to be illogical, but being illogical is not an inherent part of him. Neeel is inherently logical.

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so mostly, I think you're spouting off nonsense but it's nonsense because you're not taking the time to actually think carefully about what you're saying. You're in state where you think that simply asserting and reasserting your claims is going to make progress for you, which is never really a good sign.
Mostly I think you have great difficulty following my reasoning. I suspect that's not a function of your intelligence but something emotional because you seem to be above average in intelligence.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:04 PM   #84
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

inherent is not the same as immutable
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:36 PM   #85
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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inherent is not the same as immutable
Can the universe change to being fundamentally illogical? Not without stopping being the universe because logic is inherent to the universe.

Can a gay person stop being gay? Not without becoming a different person.

So while not directly synonymous both terms are related.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:36 PM   #86
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
Inherent.
Okay. So that's a totally different word with a totally different meaning. Maybe you should use a dictionary before just spouting off words.

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I dont think neeel being illogical is an inherent part of neeel. He has the ability to be illogical, but being illogical is not an inherent part of him. Neeel is inherently logical.
And how have you determined it's not the other way around? There's a TON of research out there (science) that points in the direction that humans are quite illogical and only sometimes make logical decisions.

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Mostly I think you have great difficulty following my reasoning. I suspect that's not a function of your intelligence but something emotional because you seem to be above average in intelligence.
You've got multiple people in multiple threads, both religious and irreligious, both highly educated and not highly educated, telling you that you're not making much sense. How is it that you've determined that we are the ones that aren't understanding and that you aren't the one with the emotional issue?
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:41 PM   #87
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
Can the universe change to being fundamentally illogical? Not without stopping being the universe because logic is inherent to the universe.
That's still not immutability.

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Can a gay person stop being gay? Not without becoming a different person.
I inherently have 10 fingers. But if I lose one, am I a different person?

You're still having tons of issues with the way you try to identify things. You're being inconsistent and that's at the root of many of your errors.

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So while not directly synonymous both terms are related.
No. That's not how this works at all.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:13 PM   #88
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
logic is inherent to the universe.
Another claim you need to back up
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:40 PM   #89
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
Another claim you need to back up
Logic is inherent to the universe because the universe is logical.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:48 PM   #90
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
That's still not immutability.



I inherently have 10 fingers. But if I lose one, am I a different person?

You're still having tons of issues with the way you try to identify things. You're being inconsistent and that's at the root of many of your errors.



No. That's not how this works at all.
We've already been over this ground. It takes a lot of time and about 60% of my mental horsepower to dumb things down enough for you to get them, and I'm not interested in doing it anymore. Vaya con dios.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:53 PM   #91
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by neeeel View Post
not an argument
I dont need an argument. The universe is logical because logic is inherent to the universe, and logic is inherent to the universe because the universe is logical.

You can substitute 'immutable' here for inherent and you see it means something similar.

Are you claiming that the universe isn't logical? I wonder what logic one would use to make such a claim!

Last edited by Do0rDoNot; 01-11-2019 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:28 AM   #92
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
I dont need an argument.
How nice.

Do people who disagree with you need an argument?

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The universe is logical because logic is inherent to the universe, and logic is inherent to the universe because the universe is logical.
Huh?

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You can substitute 'immutable' here for inherent and you see it means something similar.
Okay.

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Are you claiming that the universe isn't logical?
I don't think Neeel was "claiming" anything other than pointing out that you didn't give an argument.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:31 AM   #93
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
The universe is logical because logic is inherent to the universe, and logic is inherent to the universe because the universe is logical.
The universe is illogical because illogic is inherent to the universe, and illogic is inherent to the universe because the universe is illogical.

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You can substitute 'immutable' here for inherent and you see it means something similar.
No, you actually find that the words mean VERY different things and that you cannot substitute one for the other.

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Are you claiming that the universe isn't logical? I wonder what logic one would use to make such a claim!
No logic is necessary to make such a claim. You've shown this to be the case.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:34 AM   #94
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
We've already been over this ground.
Yes. It was demonstrated that you made no sense.

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It takes a lot of time and about 60% of my mental horsepower to dumb things down enough for you to get them, and I'm not interested in doing it anymore.
That's fine. I'll take this as a concession that you know you don't actually make sense, because if it made sense you wouldn't need to use 60% of your mighty brain power to dumb it down. You'd just be competent enough to explain it effectively.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:35 AM   #95
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

It's threads like this that makes this site so special.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:30 AM   #96
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh View Post
Happy new year y'all. I capitalised 'Perfection' just to annoy Aaron.

So, I'm having a problem resolving an apparent conflict between the idea that there is free will and the idea that god is perfect, omniscient and omnipotent. Those three values are claimed for god, or attributed to him, by various theists. If you don't think god possesses any or all of those characteristics, this doesn't apply to you.

In the beginning god created everything that will ever happen for the entirety of existence. Since god is perfect and in possession of all knowledge that it's logically possible for him to know and all powerful and therefore able to create everything as he wished to and change anything that he wished to change, it follows that everything must be exactly as god intended and could be no other way since he logically, as a perfect being, could not have created it any less perfect. He can't make mistakes, he can't create anything that could be improved in any way.

Thus, even if god lives in an eternal now where we have the illusion of time and are able to make choices, we can't actually choose anything other than what he decided would happen when he created eveyrthing. Therefore there is no actual free will. Ditto for intecessory prayer which can't change anything, or trigger an outcome, since that outcome is already decided and was never a choice in the first place.

This assumes that there is only ever one perfect outcome, a value of perfection that can't be added to. Everything is already the 'most perfect' it can be.
Its called determinism and all signs point towards it being true. That being said, its probably best you dont spend too much time thinking about it because it can be a real time sink and nothing ever comes from that time being spent thinking about it (unlike what might come from time spent thinking about an induction motor, however). Just accept it and move on is my personal advice. Dont try to build your life around it.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:18 AM   #97
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
How nice.
Logical statements are internally tautological. My argument, if you can call it that, is that to argue against the universe being logical is absurd.

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Do people who disagree with you need an argument?
An argument against it isnt possible, since it would require constructing something (an argument), arguing against the thing (logic) that argument depends on (logic).
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:20 AM   #98
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
The universe is illogical because illogic is inherent to the universe, and illogic is inherent to the universe because the universe is illogical.
But the universe is logical. We make sense of it all the time.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:32 AM   #99
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
Logic is inherent to the universe because the universe is logical.
still not backing up your claim. it might almost be an argument, but if it is, it is almost certainly a circular one.

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The universe is logical because logic is inherent to the universe, and logic is inherent to the universe because the universe is logical.
this is most definitely a circular argument ( and therefore invalid, in case you didnt know)

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You can substitute 'immutable' here for inherent and you see it means something similar.
Nope. You cant


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But the universe is logical. We make sense of it all the time.
What does it mean for the universe to be logical, and how do you know?
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:33 AM   #100
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Re: On the illusion of Free Will and God's Perfection

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
But the universe is logical. We make sense of it all the time.
Speak for yourself.
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