His argument is that Alzheimer's is a form of death.

Justice O'Connor's husband developed Alzheimer's, forgot who she was and fell in love with a new girlfriend in care facility. She has seen to his care, and loves him, but knows the man she married is long gone.

A form of death?

That's kind of like being kind of pregnant .......either you are dead or not.

"......in sickness and in health..."

How would you feel about a man who divorced a wife who suffered an accident and has become brain dead and is only being kept alive by life support machines?

False analogy...

What do you say about people in comas? Or ones who are deemed brain dead?

I would feel that the man didn't take his vows seriously......I have never been in that situation (and hope I am never in that position) but I would not want my wife to abandon me if I was brain dead and she would not want me to abandon her.

I understand vows are only words but people need to take them seriously.

You're confusing a person with a body. Just because the body of the person in front of you used to contain a person close to you such as your wife doesn't mean it always will. Defining the death of a person as when their lungs stop pumping/heart stops beating is too simplistic.

>I would not want my wife to abandon me if I was brain dead

Frankly, I don't think you could care.

How else do you define death?............

And what is the purpose of divorcing someone when they need you the most?

not getting laid?

".......in sickness and in health till death do you part"

When someone is brain-dead they no longer "need" you.

How about this:

1) A man and a woman are married for two years. They are both 22 years old.
2) The woman becomes pregnant with twins.
3) During the birth of the twins, complications occur that cause the woman to lose a great deal of blood.
4) The twins are born healthy, but their mother becomes brain dead. Doctors tell the husband that there is zero chance of his wife ever recovering. She is in a complete vegetative state. Her body is kept alive by machines so that her organs may be harvested for donation. The man becomes extremly depressed and contemplates suicide, but realizes that he must remain strong for the sake of his two newborn daughters.
5) The woman's sister is some form of crazy Christian who believes that organ donation is a sin. She hires a lawyer, and after a long legal process the sister is deemed by the courts to be the legal guardian of the brain-dead woman. She vows to keep the woman hooked up to the life-support machines forever.
6) Five years later, the husband meets a woman at a church picnic. The woman has an instant rapport with man's twins, who have grown up without a mother and have expressed great sadness at this fact. The man sees the woman regularly at church functions, and feels himself falling in love with her. The kids also grow very attached to this woman, and tell their father reguarly that they wish this woman would become their "mommy".
7) The man and woman see each other regularly at church functions and fall in love. They also begin seeing each other socially (no sex, though, that's a sin!). The kids become extremely attached to the woman and start thinking of her as their mother.
8)However, the woman eventually tells the man that she doesn't feel that she can pursue the relationship any further unless there's a good chance that they will become married. The man knows that this is only possible if he were to divorce his brain-dead wife.
9) He knows that his wife would not have wanted her children to grow up without a mother, and knows that his wife would have wanted him to move on with his life, but vows are vows so he breaks off the relationship with the new woman and spends the rest of his life alone and miserable.

Is the man's decision to remain married to his wife the correct decision?

What is the odds on this happening?

I see where you are coming from, but I can't answer unless I was in this situation. If my wife had zero chance of recovering(vegetative state) I wouldn't let her suffer. But Alzheimer's disease and being in a complete vegetative state are two different things.

Pat's still wrong in my book.

It's amazing how many family members of people with Alzheimer's told me that the person they once knew was gone (it's almost word for word the same statement every time). And this disease is progressive and irreversible.

What the person needs once the disease is advanced enough is to be cared for since they can't take care of themselves. They won't know or care who does it, and they won't even remember anyways. They need their spouse to make sure they are cared for, but they don't need to remain married.

I have been through 3 people(1 Grandma,1 Grandpa,and a Uncle) in my life that has had Alzheimer's disease. My grandmother had to deal with it for 7 years before she passed on...She thought I was my Dad(we look alike), she never could recognize my Dad or any of her children, and she thought she had a pet alligator. I am here to tell you that it is different then a person who has to live in a coma hooked to machines.
My Grandmother never had to be hooked to a machine to live the last years of her life. I am not saying that my experiences with Alzheimer's disease are similar to others. Because I can only speak of my own experiences with it.

But let me say it again, Alzheimer's disease and being in a complete vegetative state are two different things.
Just my Opinion............

But do you get the idea of the analogy? Because while I hear you saying these two things are very different, I'm not hearing you say anything that points to the analogy being flawed.

It doesn't matter.

According to Pat Alzheimers patients are already dead...

http://youtu.be/QDWUGD2A8XI

I wonder how do those who believe humans have souls reconcile these type of brain damages/disorders/diseases that affect humans with the idea that it's the soul that controls the body and not the material mind. Let's say a person like that lives in partial vegetative state for 30 years. So are these souls basically stuck in this limbo for such a long time? What does the soul do for all this time? Twirls it's invisible thumbs for the time being , only 30 years or something? lol..

Any theist can explain?

I will try my best to answer your questions the best I can, but remember this is only my opinion.

So are these souls basically stuck in this limbo for such a long time?
Yes, because a soul stays with the body till death.

What does the soul do for all this time?
I haven't a clue, but you know those stories of people who are in comas for years and years. When they come out of the comas they are the same person(personality) as they were when they went into the coma. It's a good question.

Don't you think it's a dumb idea for stuff like that to happen? Would an omniscient God design such an unintelligent system like that? Stuck souls for centuries, really for no purpose but to wait till your body dies so that you could be freed. Might as well make a case that families should be killing those type of individuals to help them escape the limbo state.. lol


I don't know any of those stories , I heard about few cases but don't remember any details. Anyway, I find this idea a bit ridiculous, this makes me even more of a disbeliever in a souls. This system of souls operating our bodies just doesn't add up when we ask these type of hypothetical questions, and also when we look into today's knowledge about neurology and still pretty basic understanding of how our brains work, yet still useful in showing that there is nothing out there suggesting that souls exist or that there is something out there controlling us other then the brain itself.

And this makes you a good, kindhearted and compassionate person who'll be let into the gates of heaven how?

If I was brain dead, I'd want my wife to be happy.

As a matter of fact, even when I'm fully alive, I want my wife to be happy, to do what she enjoys, to follow her heart.

That is what Love is to me. Caring for someone elses happiness and wellbeing, rather than using them as a means for my own safety, security and validation. But maybe the christian version of love means holding people to their word forever (God forbid people change??) and have them sit by our side twiddling their thumbs and pissing their life away while we're comatose indefinitely? "Because X years ago she gave her word goddamit!!"