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If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil

08-13-2010 , 08:37 PM
would u still b u?
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-13-2010 , 08:37 PM
Spoiler:
Cmon.


Spoiler:
Everybody.


Spoiler:
Yes or No.


More to come tomorrow about this time..
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-13-2010 , 08:41 PM
Uh... if I did not have anything I have now I would not be me... this a trick question?
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-13-2010 , 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErf
would u still b u?
no, i would have been Elvis.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-13-2010 , 08:44 PM
No. That my point the biblical God didn't want us to be us.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-13-2010 , 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErf
would u still b u?
I'd be me but different. (In the same sense that I was me before I learnt to play poker).
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-13-2010 , 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
I'd be me but different. (In the same sense that I was me before I learnt to play poker).
Do you think you would have the same level of consciousness without being able to know whats right and wrong?
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-13-2010 , 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Do you think you would have the same level of consciousness without being able to know whats right and wrong?
I think I would be an enormously different person. I dont think knowledge of morality is necessary in order to be conscious though so I think I'd have the same level of consciousneess. That's my first thought, I may change my mind shortly.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-14-2010 , 09:58 AM
I sense some sort of bait and switch coming.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-14-2010 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
I think I would be an enormously different person. I dont think knowledge of morality is necessary in order to be conscious though so I think I'd have the same level of consciousneess. That's my first thought, I may change my mind shortly.
Im not so sure i was just wondering what your take was. It seem just form looking at other animals the ones who have a higher level of consciousness also have the ability to know right form wrong on some level. I can train a dog to obey or disobey sometimes even against its nature like putting food in front of it and having the dog not eat it until i give the ok, but i cant do that with an ant.

Also good and bad right and wrong aren't just moral terms. That ability helps to keep you from touching a hot stove. It helps you decided who to date. It helps you judge all kinds of things about your world. It just doesn't seem like we would be close to what we are without that ability to judge good bad right wrong.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-14-2010 , 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErf
would u still b u?
In the above question, do you like who “u” is?
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Im not so sure i was just wondering what your take was. It seem just form looking at other animals the ones who have a higher level of consciousness also have the ability to know right form wrong on some level. I can train a dog to obey or disobey sometimes even against its nature like putting food in front of it and having the dog not eat it until i give the ok, but i cant do that with an ant.
I think consciousness is necessary for morality, I don't think morality is necessary for consciousness though. I'm not convinced animals can act morally - I've heard the claim put before, but havent seen any really compelling evidence.

In my opininon consciousness requires being self-aware (to some level) - morality requires another quantum leap (also in my uninformed opinion) namely that of considering others to have that same sort of existence as you've identified for yourself. I think it's possible to be self-aware without making the next step (perhaps there are some psychopaths like this, I don't know) so I think it's possible to be conscious and sentient but have no knowledge of right and wrong.
Quote:
Also good and bad right and wrong aren't just moral terms. That ability helps to keep you from touching a hot stove. It helps you decided who to date. It helps you judge all kinds of things about your world. It just doesn't seem like we would be close to what we are without that ability to judge good bad right wrong.
Well I was restricting the words to be moral terms. It's true people may say "it's not right" to date him without intending it to be a moral statement. I think Big Erf was talking about specifically in a moral sense though and that's certainly how I answered. I take your point that, if I was incapable of distinguishing between different possible worlds and choosing a preferred one (or similar) then I'd be a far cry from who I am now though.

Nonetheless, I don't object to identifying the two possible versions of "me" - if you don't allow such identity you end up making ludicrous linguistic constructions to try to account for sentences like "I had eggs for breakfast" which seems counterproductive.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErf
In the above question, do you like who “u” is?
Yes.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 03:53 AM
Do we have knowledge what is good an evil right now?

There are obvious things that are good and things that are evil, but there are still gray areas
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08-15-2010 , 03:54 AM
Would I be the same person I am today if I didn't eat that jolly rancher 3 hours ago
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 04:58 AM
It depends on what you mean by 'ourselves.'

Would you be yourself if you lived in Mexico instead of wherever you live now? Yes, but you would have different experiences, etc.

I would say it would make a person different but they don't make a different person.
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08-15-2010 , 05:13 AM
yes, because i'm always me and i don't have much knowledge of good or evil.
The best I know about good and evil is them being shades on some quantumcosmic palette.

imo good and evil are overrated, to be or not to be that's the question.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
I think consciousness is necessary for morality, I don't think morality is necessary for consciousness though. I'm not convinced animals can act morally - I've heard the claim put before, but havent seen any really compelling evidence.

In my opininon consciousness requires being self-aware (to some level) - morality requires another quantum leap (also in my uninformed opinion) namely that of considering others to have that same sort of existence as you've identified for yourself. I think it's possible to be self-aware without making the next step (perhaps there are some psychopaths like this, I don't know) so I think it's possible to be conscious and sentient but have no knowledge of right and wrong.

Well I was restricting the words to be moral terms. It's true people may say "it's not right" to date him without intending it to be a moral statement. I think Big Erf was talking about specifically in a moral sense though and that's certainly how I answered.I take your point that, if I was incapable of distinguishing between different possible worlds and choosing a preferred one (or similar) then I'd be a far cry from who I am now though.

Nonetheless, I don't object to identifying the two possible versions of "me" - if you don't allow such identity you end up making ludicrous linguistic constructions to try to account for sentences like "I had eggs for breakfast" which seems counterproductive.
Im not talking about words, good and bad are feelings. I think morality stems from those feeling when combined with self awareness, the knowledge of others, empathy, societal interaction and societal teachings. And i think those feelings are older then our current level self awareness or morality. So when op says hes going to take away my ability to feel good or feel bad its like saying i wont feel bad when i touch a hot ember, i wont feel good when i quench my thirst. I wont be able to feel bad when i treat someone bad, i wont be able to feel good when i treat someone good. I think i would be a danger to myself and others, if i could survive at all. I really dont think we could. I definitely wouldn't be me in the way i know me.

I also think it might take away some level of self awareness but but im not so sure...

Last edited by batair; 08-15-2010 at 09:46 PM.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Im not talking about words, good and bad are feelings. I think morality stems from those feeling when combined with self awareness, the knowledge of others, empathy, societal interaction and societal teachings. And i think those feelings are older then our current level self awareness or morality. So when op says hes going to take away my ability to feel good or feel bad its like saying i wont feel bad when i touch a hot ember, i wont feel good when i quench my thirst. I wont be able to feel bad when i treat someone bad, i wont be able to feel good when i treat someone good. I think i would be a danger to myself and others, if i could survive at all. I really dont think we could. I definitely wouldn't be me in the way i know me.

I also think it might take away some level of self awareness but but im not so sure...
Well I dont know - I dont think that's what he meant at all, but it's hard to know given his follow up posts. Irrespective, I think the question of 'how much can you change while staying you' is pretty much impossible to answer in any definitive sense other than by saying you are only you for an instant - which may be unassailable, but also isn't very helpful.

You may be right that morality has an emotional underpinning - for my part of course, it's an objective facet of reality I'm either able to know or that I am oblivious to. For me, not knowing morality is no different from whether I'd be the same without understanding calculus. We obviously have differing views on that, but rarely get far when we talk about it, hey? :/
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
Well I dont know - I dont think that's what he meant at all, but it's hard to know given his follow up posts. Irrespective, I think the question of 'how much can you change while staying you' is pretty much impossible to answer in any definitive sense other than by saying you are only you for an instant - which may be unassailable, but also isn't very helpful.

You may be right that morality has an emotional underpinning - for my part of course, it's an objective facet of reality I'm either able to know or that I am oblivious to. For me, not knowing morality is no different from whether I'd be the same without understanding calculus. We obviously have differing views on that, but rarely get far when we talk about it, hey? :/
True.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote
08-15-2010 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErf
would u still b u?
No... you would be Adam and Eve.... pre fruit eating.
If You Didn't Have Knowledge of Good and Evil Quote

      
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