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If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story? If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story?

06-29-2016 , 01:50 AM
I don't have time to respond to everything right now, but I'll get started.

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Originally Posted by LuckyTxGuy
My response to your first and probably your second question would be this.... If your friend seems to give good poker advice but then you discovered he was lying to you about many other things he told you, wouldn't you begin to question his poker advice and pretty much every story or "fact" he told you?
First of all, there's a difference between a "lie" and something that roughly resembles the situation I put forward. But I come down along the same lines as well named here. How do I know that poker advice is good or bad? There's a form of external verification.

And while I might "question" his poker advice in the absence of some form of verification, that doesn't make the poker advice automatically wrong or bad.

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Put very simply, sort of like the little boy who cried "wolf!". How do you know when to believe your friend and when not to?
The thing about the story of the boy who cried wolf is that he REPEATEDLY cried wolf to the point that nobody paid attention to him. Your position is dramatically different because you've created an all-or-nothing dichotomy.

Edit: To clarify, you've taken a position that if someone is wrong once that you should never trust them about anything.

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Unless the Bible explicitly says or implies that a particular story or potion is a parable, how can we start waving our wand over certain parts and deciding what is a parable or allegory or not?
This is an interesting one, because you have now pre-defined that the Bible must FIRST be interpreted literally unless otherwise noted. Why is that the base assumption and not that the Bible is primarily a book that conveys accurate theology, and not necessarily a book of literal history?

Last edited by Aaron W.; 06-29-2016 at 01:56 AM.
If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story? Quote
06-29-2016 , 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.

This is an interesting one, because you have now pre-defined that the Bible must FIRST be interpreted literally unless otherwise noted. Why is that the base assumption and not that the Bible is primarily a book that conveys accurate theology, and not necessarily a book of literal history?
I'm sorry I don't have a ton of time to reply to this thread either. I might not should have posted and created so many questions, not having time to come back and try to answer better.

In short I would ask this. If the Bible conveys accurate theology but not literal history, then how can you trust the theology if you can't trust the history?

If someone says the history can be proven false or inaccurate (which I don't personally accept) then why would that person accept the theology of the Bible as accurate? There is no way to "prove" the theology, so it would seem to me that would be the harder part for someone to believe anyway.

My views are not unique or anything special. I hold to the same conservative view of the Bible that the rest of the Reformed church does.

At the end of the day I can't help but think about Mark 8:29 when Jesus said: "And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” " That is the most important question. If He is not the incarnate son of God, the Christ, then the rest of the Bible really doesn't matter at all.
If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story? Quote
06-30-2016 , 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyTxGuy
In short I would ask this. If the Bible conveys accurate theology but not literal history, then how can you trust the theology if you can't trust the history?
Why should I view it as history?

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If someone says the history can be proven false or inaccurate (which I don't personally accept) then why would that person accept the theology of the Bible as accurate? There is no way to "prove" the theology, so it would seem to me that would be the harder part for someone to believe anyway.
History and theology are two different things. Here's an example. If I have a friend relating an emotional account with me, I can accept that my friend is being entirely accurate in his perception of events while simultaneously believing that his perception of events is not entirely accurate.

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My views are not unique or anything special. I hold to the same conservative view of the Bible that the rest of the Reformed church does.
I'm aware of this. But that doesn't make your position any more believable or reasonable.

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At the end of the day I can't help but think about Mark 8:29 when Jesus said: "And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” " That is the most important question. If He is not the incarnate son of God, the Christ, then the rest of the Bible really doesn't matter at all.
If the rest of the Bible really doesn't matter at all, why does it matter that you read it as a literal history?

Edit: This last line is one of my primary disappointments with Reformed Theology. There's so much about trying to be right that hard lines are taken in ways and places where it seems to make no sense. And then when you push on it, you get responses that basically negate the hard lines that were taken in the first place, which makes me wonder why those hard lines were drawn to begin with.
If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story? Quote
06-30-2016 , 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by LuckyTxGuy
Let's use the creation account example you mentioned. The Bible gives a very detailed timeline of the events of creation. If you choose to believe it's just a parable or a story to help you understand God's plan for creation but it's not a literal historical account, where did you get that information? No where does the Bible say that it's not factual and literal.
The accounts of the Greek Gods are pretty detailed. But the Greeks didn't believe in their Gods in the literal sense that you are reading the Bible with.

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Following that line of thinking, how do we know the story of Noah is true, or Exodus is true concerning all the plagues and miracles surrounding the story of the Israelites escaping the captivity of Pharaoh? And if those miracles aren't all true, let's skip forward and talk about the miracles of the New Testament.
Why should documents written thousands of years apart in entirely different cultures be read in exactly the same way?
If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story? Quote
06-30-2016 , 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron W.
The accounts of the Greek Gods are pretty detailed. But the Greeks didn't believe in their Gods in the literal sense that you are reading the Bible with.
This isn't just dead religions either, Shinto is still practiced by millions of Japanese people, but few of them think that the legends of local kami or of the founding of Japan, etc. are literally true.
If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story? Quote
06-30-2016 , 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyTxGuy
I'm not saying you disbelieve all these things because I honestly have no idea what you believe but these are lines of thinking I've heard before when people start saying they believe this but not that in the Bible. Without some magic truth meter how do we determine what is true and not?
We have many ways of coming to know what is true. I don't think we need to assume that there is just one.

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What is literal and not, especially where there are no clues that tell us it's a parable?
The universe seems to point towards the idea that the Genesis account is not literal. That seems to be a big clue.

Therefore, it seems reasonable to interpret it as a parable. What do I actually lose by doing that?

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Speaking about these sort of common beliefs/disbeliefs, it's not unusual to find people who say, "Yes I believe Jesus was a good teacher. He had a lot of good things to say about being a good person and we should listen to what he says, but there are other ways to get to heaven than just Jesus." What they have done is seemingly randomly chosen to believe the parts of the Bible where Jesus gives us moral instructions but decided to not believe the part where he says he is "THE way, the truth and the life and no man comes to the father except by me." So either Jesus lied there or that part of the Bible is incorrect. Either way, how would one decide which verses were true and which weren't?
If you are unwilling to parse between history and theology, then there's not much room for you to make sense of it. But the rest of the world can and does parse between history and theology, and to us it's not a problem.

Jesus' claims about himself are theological in nature. Given that these claims are central to Christianity, it seems important to either accept them or reject them as a theological basis. But you don't have a similar type of theological linchpin on the creation account.
If there are embellishments about Paul, what does it say about the Jesus story? Quote

      
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