If reality always existed... - Religion, God, and Theology

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If reality always existed...

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09-23-2010 , 06:24 PM

Stu Pidasso

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Sagan suggested it as a response to theists who claimed that something must have always existed.

If you accept that reality has always existed can you think of a reason why intellect and consciousness haven't always existed?....I can but I'm not going to tell you.

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09-23-2010 , 06:52 PM

bunny

will feast on your soul

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 11,219

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Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

Same reason hydrogen hasn't always existed.

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09-23-2010 , 06:55 PM

duffe

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,306

There's huge difference between reality and phenomena like matter or consciousness. Reality is always and will always be, even if nothing has ever or will ever exist.

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09-23-2010 , 07:00 PM

thirddan

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I can but I'm not going to tell you.

is this you, stu pidasso, knowing? or carl sagan knowing?

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09-23-2010 , 07:31 PM

JackHighFlop

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Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 983

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

Is it because "human" consciousness is the result of evolution, and is in no way mystical or supernatural like religious people want us to believe?

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09-23-2010 , 10:46 PM

loK2thabrain

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how can we know if it has or has not existed forever? oh right, we can't.

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09-23-2010 , 11:16 PM

Deorum

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Always does not have to be infinite.

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09-24-2010 , 12:28 AM

Stu Pidasso

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bunny

Same reason hydrogen hasn't always existed.

Do you consider hydrogen to be a brute fact of reality?

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09-24-2010 , 12:31 AM

Stu Pidasso

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Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,373

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Originally Posted by thirddan

is this you, stu pidasso, knowing? or carl sagan knowing?

I'm sure Sagan realized what I realize but I don't recall him every specifically saying it.

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09-24-2010 , 02:24 AM

#10

Deorum

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Originally Posted by Butcho22

how can we know if it has or has not existed forever? oh right, we can't.

To put it another way, life does not have to be continuous in order to be continual.

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09-24-2010 , 02:54 AM

#11

bunny

will feast on your soul

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 11,219

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

Do you consider hydrogen to be a brute fact of reality?

No.

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09-24-2010 , 03:24 AM

#12

Hardball47

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Butcho22

how can we know if it has or has not existed forever? oh right, we can't.

The universe is alive...... Strange thought, huh? Or maybe not so strange.

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09-24-2010 , 04:26 AM

#13

Bladesman87

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Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

I'm so tempted to call shenanigans on this thread. I have my broom at the ready yet again in this forum.

Is this question really meant to be difficult to answer?

Because you know full well that none of us here think that life has always existed. And you know full well that we all think living things are where consciousness and intellect occur.

If you've confused me, it's because I don't know why you're asking something when you know what we're going to say but posing it as a problem.

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09-24-2010 , 12:09 PM

#14

Ringo

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 581

We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself...?

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09-24-2010 , 02:41 PM

#15

CanadaLowball

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Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 862

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

Do you consider hydrogen to be a brute fact of reality?

what do you mean by "brute fact of reality"? could you illustrate with some examples things you think are brute facts of reality and why you think this?

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09-24-2010 , 08:55 PM

#16

Stu Pidasso

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Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,373

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Originally Posted by CanadaLowball

what do you mean by "brute fact of reality"? could you illustrate with some examples things you think are brute facts of reality and why you think this?

In another thread bunny made the comment that rationality, consciousness, and intellect are brute facts of reality. I agree with him. I don't believe those things can emerge unless they already exist(or at least the potential already exists).

Its kind of like saying 2+2=4 was true even before there were 4 things in existence.

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09-24-2010 , 09:59 PM

#17

CanadaLowball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

In another thread bunny made the comment that rationality, consciousness, and intellect are brute facts of reality. I agree with him. I don't believe those things can emerge unless they already exist(or at least the potential already exists).

Its kind of like saying 2+2=4 was true even before there were 4 things in existence.

i'm not sure i agree with that. specifically, i don't know why the bolded part is necessarily true.

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09-24-2010 , 10:23 PM

#18

bunny

will feast on your soul

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 11,219

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadaLowball

i'm not sure i agree with that. specifically, i don't know why the bolded part is necessarily true.

Me neither - I don't think "couldn't have emerged unless it already existed" is a characteristic of brute facts.

(As for the bracketed part - not being able to exist without the potential to exist is either meaningless or tautological, imo).

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