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Old 07-20-2021, 01:53 AM   #151
FellaGaga-52
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
I am not making a "most popular religion argument"; I am making a "most powerful religion argument." Do you see the difference? If not, I would be delighted to explain the difference to you in a future post.



No it isn't.
I thought it was about being meek, now you laud it for being the most powerful. Well one thing is right, it is the most powerful religion (because of money), and being powerful also has nothing to do with being true.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:02 AM   #152
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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From an unpublished manuscript I wrote:


For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by
him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Colossians 1:16-17

JESUS CHRIST IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN WORLD HISTORY:

This is from Massimo Lorenziniís book A Reason for the Hope, pages 199-200:

Who is the most influential person in the history of the world? Nobody knows the exact
date of His birth, but His coming into the world split history into B.C. and A.D. He never
wrote a book, but more books have been written about Him than anyone else in history
and the only eye-witness accounts of His life and teachings have been translated into
more languages than any other writing (2,000+). He never painted a picture or
composed any poetry or music, but nobodyís life and teaching has been the subject of
output of music, plays, and all other forms of art. He never raised an army, but millions
of His followers have laid down their lives for Him. Every year about 330,000 are
martyred for identifying with Him.

During His public ministry, His travels were limited to an area about the size of New
Jersey, yet today His influence is worldwide. He never spoke to more than a few
thousand people, yet today His followers make up the largest religious group the world
has ever known. He had no formal education, but thousands of schools, colleges,
universities, and seminaries have been founded in His name. He never owned a
property, He had to borrow a boat to sail in, a donkey to ride on, and even a coin to use
for an illustration, but all around the world today thousands of hospitals, orphanages,
churches, pregnancy centers, and other buildings have been erected to carry out his
work.

Who am I describing? Jesus of Nazareth, of course. Of Him Napoleon said, ďI know
men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other
person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar,
Charlemagne, and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creation of our
genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour
millions of men would die for Him.Ē


JESUS CHRIST: FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN:

1. Many details of His life were foretold in the Bible many hundreds of years before He was even born.
2. He uniquely exemplifies perfect justice and perfect mercy.
3. He uniquely exemplifies majesty and meekness.
4. He uniquely exemplifies a judge who pays the fine for the criminal.
5. He uniquely always existed and created the heavens and the earth.
6. He uniquely taught that to obtain eternal life, one must not only believe ďinĒ what he
taught, but also ďonĒ what he accomplished by his life, death, burial and resurrection.
One must trust Him and Him alone. Believers will have a personal relationship with Him.

JESUS CHRIST: LIAR, LORD OR LUNATIC?

Anyone who considers the life of Jesus must conclude that he was one of three things: A liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. (Recently, some have tried to argue that the Jesus of the Bible didnít exist at all. The problem with that thesis is that if one denies the historical evidence for Jesus, then one must also, to be consistent, deny the historical evidence for any historical figure in antiquity. Iím not personally aware of anyone who is such a model of consistency.)

Here is a quote from C. S. Lewisí Mere Christianity (pp.54-56):

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about
Him: ĎIím ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I donít accept His claim to be
God.í That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of
things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the
level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You
must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or
something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon;
or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising
nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not let that open to us. He did not
intend to.
I submit this above post facto to the Scopes Trial, as evidence of the purely and desperately indoctrinated mind twisting and turning reality on its ear to smuggle in its irrational supernatural claims, and doing it with pathetically transparent lust for authoritarianism to rule this realm utterly from some other.
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Old 07-20-2021, 03:01 AM   #153
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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I thought it was about being meek, now you laud it for being the most powerful.
The two are not mutually exclusive.

Having said that, I thought even you would understand that since the context of this dialogue is the Francis quote, that you would understand that powerful, in context, means the power to transform individuals and nations in a positive way.

I would like to encourage you to actually read the posts that you are responding to, and, if you're up to the task, understand the context of what's being said.

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Well one thing is right, it is the most powerful religion (because of money)
False. Christianity thrives even in some places where being a Christian can literally mean a death sentence. Or at least jail and having all your property confiscated. Google "Christians in China" or "Christians in Iran" if you want to actually learn about reality.

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and being powerful also has nothing to do with being true.
False.
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Old 07-20-2021, 03:08 AM   #154
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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I submit this above post facto to the Scopes Trial, as evidence of the purely and desperately indoctrinated mind twisting and turning reality on its ear to smuggle in its irrational supernatural claims, and doing it with pathetically transparent lust for authoritarianism to rule this realm utterly from some other.
Psychological Reductionism is the last refuge for someone without an argument. - Dennis Prager

Many, if not most, of your responses to my posts, fail to engage in what was actually said in the post.

Since you seem to have no interest in dialogue, I'll let you get back to your blogging.
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Old 07-20-2021, 04:23 AM   #155
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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How so?
Because you can't prove that none of those gods are the ones that actually exist and that it's actually you that's right.

I'm genuinely curious about how you convince yourself that your god is real, and Allah, for example, being the closest god to your Christian beliefs probably, isn't real? If you don't think Allah is real, then how do you explain over a billion people believing in him?

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Why?
Because arguments for gods rely on logical constructs that can apply to any god that meets the criteria you assign to yours, you have no way to know if you're right that it's your god that actually exists and not one of the others, and that matters. You could be worshipping the wrong god.

You ought to be as equally agnostic about your god as you are about all the other gods and yet instead you have certainty. That certainty is unreasonable, you haven't justified it.

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I don't recall ever postulating an argument that commits the "God of the Gaps" Fallacy. Do you recall me ever committing that fallacy?
I didn't say you did or that it's a fallacy. It's simply the last hiding place of god, the things that we haven't yet explained using a different method, like the scientific method for example.

I find 'yeah but why are we even here' (i.e. a 'gap' that science hasn't yet explained) to be the most unconvincing and dissatisfying, and I have to say, intellectually dishonest reason for believing in a god. I have higher standards for my beliefs.


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It's outside of my skill set to figure out why you're not convinced that Jesus was and is who He claimed to be.

The existence of God is certainly not a trivial matter, in my opinion.
I'm using 'trivially true' to mean that it's very easy to show as true. We can use 'axiomatic' if you prefer, the point is that if it were that obviously true, why would I be in any doubt about it? More likely than all the dodges like 'mysterious ways' used to explain why god doesn't simply make himself known, is that he doesn't exist at all and we invented him, like all those other gods that you don't believe in and you think were invented.
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Old 07-20-2021, 10:44 AM   #156
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Because you can't prove that none of those gods are the ones that actually exist and that it's actually you that's right.

I'm genuinely curious about how you convince yourself that your god is real, and Allah, for example, being the closest god to your Christian beliefs probably, isn't real? If you don't think Allah is real, then how do you explain over a billion people believing in him?



Because arguments for gods rely on logical constructs that can apply to any god that meets the criteria you assign to yours, you have no way to know if you're right that it's your god that actually exists and not one of the others, and that matters. You could be worshipping the wrong god.

You ought to be as equally agnostic about your god as you are about all the other gods and yet instead you have certainty. That certainty is unreasonable, you haven't justified it.



I didn't say you did or that it's a fallacy. It's simply the last hiding place of god, the things that we haven't yet explained using a different method, like the scientific method for example.

I find 'yeah but why are we even here' (i.e. a 'gap' that science hasn't yet explained) to be the most unconvincing and dissatisfying, and I have to say, intellectually dishonest reason for believing in a god. I have higher standards for my beliefs.




I'm using 'trivially true' to mean that it's very easy to show as true. We can use 'axiomatic' if you prefer, the point is that if it were that obviously true, why would I be in any doubt about it? More likely than all the dodges like 'mysterious ways' used to explain why god doesn't simply make himself known, is that he doesn't exist at all and we invented him, like all those other gods that you don't believe in and you think were invented.
I think maybe posts 135 and 136 in this thread will address virtually all of the above.
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:40 AM   #157
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

Well, I'll stick with my position that most of the religions are trying to do the same thing (explaining origins and offering codes of morality), are both succeeding and failing in the task, that the "mine is true and your's is false" comes from pure market share cynical manipulations and "I'm in the good tribe" mentality, that the supernatural claims in them emanate from magical thinking, superstition, and myth, that to the extent they are dogmatic and unchanging they require dishonesty and are counterproductive, and that the role that being in the religion plays in consciousness is totally lost on the indoctrinated.
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:06 PM   #158
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Well, I'll stick with my position that most of the religions are trying to do the same thing (explaining origins and offering codes of morality), are both succeeding and failing in the task
How can religions be "both succeeding and failing in the task?"

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, that the "mine is true and your's is false" comes from pure market share cynical manipulations
How do you measure the market share of martyrdom?

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and "I'm in the good tribe" mentality,
Do you believe that non-supernaturalists are "in the good tribe" and that supernaturalists are not?

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that the supernatural claims in them emanate from magical thinking,
Please define "magical thinking."

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, superstition, and myth, that to the extent they are dogmatic and unchanging they require dishonesty and are counterproductive, and that the role that being in the religion plays in consciousness is totally lost on the indoctrinated.
How so? How do you justify these claims? Thanks.
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:04 PM   #159
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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I think maybe posts 135 and 136 in this thread will address virtually all of the above.
No they didn't, not in the slightest, every religion can produce similarly biased anecdotal 'evidence'.

Given the extreme certainty of your beliefs about something that it's actually not possible to be sure of which would make you reasonably an agnostic like me, I would hope that you have very very good reasons to believe, and those passages weren't good, so... are you saying that you don't have good reasons to believe and that you simply want to believe?

I could actually respect that more.

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Old 07-21-2021, 05:46 PM   #160
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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No they didn't, not in the slightest,
Well, I give it my best shot.

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every religion can produce similarly biased anecdotal 'evidence'.
I don't believe that any educated student of Religious Studies would concur with your statement here (unless the quality and quantity of the evidence is completely ignored). Maybe you have an insight that no expert on the subject (that I know of) has.

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Given the extreme certainty of your beliefs about something that it's actually not possible to be sure of...
How can you know that it is impossible for me to be sure of my beliefs? You are either a psychic or are arrogant (or both).

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which would make you reasonably an agnostic like me, I would hope that you have very very good reasons to believe, and those passages weren't good, so... are you saying that you don't have good reasons to believe and that you simply want to believe?

I could actually respect that more.
It might help this conversation move forward if you share with me why you found my reasons unconvincing.

As an aside, I have neither the ability nor the obligation to convince anyone that Christianity is true.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. - 1 Peter 3:15

I'm commanded to give an answer; but I am not commanded to convince anybody.
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Old 07-21-2021, 05:53 PM   #161
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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No they didn't, not in the slightest, every religion can produce similarly biased anecdotal 'evidence'.

Given the extreme certainty of your beliefs about something that it's actually not possible to be sure of which would make you reasonably an agnostic like me, I would hope that you have very very good reasons to believe, and those passages weren't good, so... are you saying that you don't have good reasons to believe and that you simply want to believe?

I could actually respect that more.
Although I agree with you, I feel compelled to point out that ALL the believers have is their belief! If there were objective, verifiable, repeatable, evidence of a phenomenon then that would be science!

So.... all they can offer are stories in old books, anecdotes, and philosophical arguments on the limits of understandings (and insert the "god of the gaps" argument).

So it seems like this discussion is doomed to go on forever.
Seems like a waste of time to me.
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Old 07-21-2021, 06:06 PM   #162
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Although I agree with you, I feel compelled to point out that ALL the believers have is their belief!
That's just silly.

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If there were objective, verifiable, repeatable, evidence of a phenomenon then that would be science!
At least we agree that Darwinian Evolution is not science (since it is not repeatable).

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So.... all they can offer are stories in old books,
So, if I offered stories in new books, that would be fine?

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anecdotes, and philosophical arguments on the limits of understandings (and insert the "god of the gaps" argument).
Not sure why philosophical arguments are problematic.

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So it seems like this discussion is doomed to go on forever.
The discussion will certainly end at the Great White Throne Judgement (if not sooner).

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Seems like a waste of time to me.
Yet, here you are!
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Old 07-21-2021, 09:15 PM   #163
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

Wow!
If you are a denying the validity of evolution then this truly is a waste of time. Just read any of Richard Dawkins books. If arguments of comparative anatomy and genetic similarity across species doesn't convince you then a 5 second google search on current experiments (which are hard to do given the human life-span) yields some cool stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution
https://www.discovermagazine.com/pla...ur-view-of-how
https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej201769
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...riment/581521/
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:05 PM   #164
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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How can religions be "both succeeding and failing in the task?"

Take playing golf for instance. In the course of a round you both succeed and fail at various times in various shots.

How do you measure the market share of martyrdom?

Fools killing and dying for religions is nothing noble. I saw a documentary about the Heaven's Gate cult the other night, actually a pretty good name for a cult ... they fanatically offed themselves as they awaited the Hale-Bopp "UFO" to take them to the promised land. It actually has some reality to it. Hale-Bopp is really coming back in 2000+ years.

Do you believe that non-supernaturalists are "in the good tribe" and that supernaturalists are not?

Nope. Being a humanist doesn't make anybody moral any more than saying I'm chosen by god makes anybody moral.

Please define "magical thinking."

"I have emotional experiences tied with god evidence/god revelation in my brain, and since I do, this means this is actually the ultimate truth of things. Don't try to tell me different. It isn't about reality, it's about what I believe."

How so? How do you justify these claims? Thanks.
Pass
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:32 AM   #165
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Itís 2+2. I figured thereíd be blowback. Iím trying to help here. Remember when I said I deal with lots of slander and defamation? Forum robots are lol this rolls off my back.

Anyways Iíll try to summarize. You cannot explain God with logic. I tried to be as logical as possible. If you got shoulder tapped after a prayer and then googled it and found a bunch of similar testimony, perhaps it would lead you in the direction of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
someone asked you how you know the god you saw was christian and not muslim, hindu, buddhist etc. you did not answer. how did you know it was christian god and jesus and all that? what were the identifying factors?
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:43 AM   #166
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Wow!
Wow!!

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If you are a denying the validity of evolution then this truly is a waste of time.
I am not denying the validity of evolution. I do deny Darwinism. Evolution within species occurs, and has been well-documented.

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Just read any of Richard Dawkins books. If arguments of comparative anatomy and genetic similarity across species doesn't convince you then a 5 second google search on current experiments (which are hard to do given the human life-span) yields some cool stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution
https://www.discovermagazine.com/pla...ur-view-of-how
https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej201769
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...riment/581521/
Please highlight the links(s) above that have a human being evolving from a prior species, since that was what I was specifically addressing. Thanks.
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:52 AM   #167
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Take playing golf for instance. In the course of a round you both succeed and fail at various times in various shots.
Which religions have succeeded in explaining origins and/or morality? (Your earlier post noted that religions have both succeeded and failed at various times to explain those two things.)

Thanks.
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Old 07-22-2021, 03:06 AM   #168
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Fools killing and dying for religions is nothing noble. I saw a documentary about the Heaven's Gate cult the other night, actually a pretty good name for a cult ... they fanatically offed themselves as they awaited the Hale-Bopp "UFO" to take them to the promised land. It actually has some reality to it. Hale-Bopp is really coming back in 2000+ years.
Problem is, none of the above is comparable to the type of martyrdom that Christians have endured at various times and in various places. Christian martyrdom involves being killed by people who oppose Christianity. Suicide isn't martyrdom.

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Me:
Do you believe that non-supernaturalists are "in the good tribe" and that supernaturalists are not?

You:
Nope. Being a humanist doesn't make anybody moral any more than saying I'm chosen by god makes anybody moral.
I agree. We're on the same page here, because I have never argued that Christians are better than non-Christians; but I have argued that Christians are better off than non-Christians because Christians have been forgiven by God, while non-Christians have not. That distinction is important to dispel the "Good tribe" vs "Bad tribe" false dichotomy that you proposed earlier.
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Old 07-22-2021, 03:18 AM   #169
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Me:
Please define "magical thinking."

FellaGaga-52:
"I have emotional experiences tied with god evidence/god revelation in my brain, and since I do, this means this is actually the ultimate truth of things. Don't try to tell me different. It isn't about reality, it's about what I believe."
I think that is a good definition of "magical thinking." I am grateful that I don't personally know any Christians that are engaging in "magical thinking" (based on the definition that you just provided).

Quote:
Me:
How so? How do you justify these claims? Thanks.

FellaGaga-52:
Pass

I thought one your criticisms of Christians was that we don't give sufficient reasons and/or evidence for our positions. Apparently you don't hold the same standard of criticisms for your own claims.

Last edited by lagtight; 07-22-2021 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 07-22-2021, 03:55 PM   #170
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Although I agree with you, I feel compelled to point out that ALL the believers have is their belief! If there were objective, verifiable, repeatable, evidence of a phenomenon then that would be science!

So.... all they can offer are stories in old books, anecdotes, and philosophical arguments on the limits of understandings (and insert the "god of the gaps" argument).

So it seems like this discussion is doomed to go on forever.
Seems like a waste of time to me.
Well put.
If someone believes and they get comfort from it, whats the problem, I dont see any.
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:34 AM   #171
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Well put.
If someone believes and they get comfort from it, whats the problem, I dont see any.
And when those beliefs are incompatible with the beliefs of others and they start to kill each other over them and force them on others? Still no problem?
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:42 AM   #172
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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I don't believe that any educated student of Religious Studies would concur with your statement here (unless the quality and quantity of the evidence is completely ignored). Maybe you have an insight that no expert on the subject (that I know of) has.
I was generalising but it's moot since anecdotal evidence is unconvincing to me, especially for a claim of this magnitude. It's an extremely poor standard of evidence.

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How can you know that it is impossible for me to be sure of my beliefs? You are either a psychic or are arrogant (or both).
Or neither. If it's possible for you to prove your god exists then do so immediately and put this interminable disagreement to bed once and for all. Do something that no one else in history has been able to do and that it would appear your god doesn't want you to be able to do. I've heard so many excuses for why God doesn't simply make himself known, but the most simple, and convincing, explanation is that he doesn't actually exist.

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It might help this conversation move forward if you share with me why you found my reasons unconvincing.
Probably for the same reasons that you find Muslim's reasons for believing in Allah unconvincing. Why don't you find their reasons convincing?

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As an aside, I have neither the ability nor the obligation to convince anyone that Christianity is true.
You don't have the ability to prove it's true? Then why do you believe it.

Right there is my entire point, that in the face of not being able to prove your beliefs, you should reasonably be an agnostic, you haven't earned your certainty. And you appear to have just agreed with that LG.
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:46 AM   #173
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Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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And when those beliefs are incompatible with the beliefs of others and they start to kill each other over them and force them on others? Still no problem?
Thats a human problem though lack of tolerance, it does not have to be that way and isn't in the great majority of believers.
By the way I have no time for mainstream religions.
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:48 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Lunkwill View Post
Although I agree with you, I feel compelled to point out that ALL the believers have is their belief! If there were objective, verifiable, repeatable, evidence of a phenomenon then that would be science!
Since science only deals with the physical and ignores the supernatural, and gods are supernatural, it's not possible for science to prove or disprove gods. It simply has nothing to say on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunkwill View Post
So.... all they can offer are stories in old books, anecdotes, and philosophical arguments on the limits of understandings (and insert the "god of the gaps" argument).

So it seems like this discussion is doomed to go on forever.
Seems like a waste of time to me.
While there are 6 billion theists and multiple mutually exclusive incompatible belief systems that are still causing mayhem, violence, and suffering in the world, this is a conversation still worth having.
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:49 AM   #175
Mightyboosh
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mount Olympus
Posts: 5,558
Re: I had a religious experience and itís changed my life

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Originally Posted by rayfox111 View Post
Thats a human problem though lack of tolerance, it does not have to be that way and isn't in the great majority of believers.
By the way I have no time for mainstream religions.
It is that way though, and that's a problem.

And by believing, spreading, and helping to perpetuate those beliefs systems, the peaceful majority are contributing to the problem. They are the problem.
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