You dont need Jesus at all.

While our knowledge of history can be wrong it does not really affect us in the same way as misunderstanding of God could affect you. If we are wrong about history then it's not a big deal, but if we are wrong about the bible and God really does want us to stone unruly children then there's a problem...

The way I see it is that the OT is full of rather silly and immoral laws and mythical stories which we know today were either completely made up or borrowed from other religions. The laws which were supposedly given by God are unjust and rather pointless. Would a being that created all of this bother telling us that one cannot mix fabrics or trim beard? I don't think so , and it would take some serious evidence for someone to convince me that this is the case, that God does really care about these silly things. Jesus was born after the Jewish texts were in a completed form, that means he knew what the Old Testament(in the Jewish form) claims about him. Don't you think that if God really showed up he would care to straighten out the misleading stories about him ? Yet he does not do so, and he continues to claim that actually the texts are accurate and 100% true. This is a huge problem to me...

Charles Manson's ldo.

I'm not sure how far to take this since I largely agree with you. I think the problems of textual variation and explaining the ridiculousness of much of the Bible is enough for me to discount it.

I was just pointing out as a logical argument that knowing that some % of a book to be incorrect/messed with does not necessarily require tossing out the whole thing.

What I find interesting about the Bible is that I take it to be true that 99% of the readers have no idea what its saying anyways. I remember discussing many years ago with a Rabbi... he was explaining how many passages were misrepresented by modern believers because they didn't know anything about the cultural context of the times when they were written. He explained that much didn't make sense unless you knew the customs and the culture of the people at that time.

Of course the Christians would likely just dismiss him... after all, what does a Jewish Rabbi know about the Old testament!??!

Nothing, just like everyone else. JK, kinda.

I agree, that works under normal circumstances when we know humans can make mistakes, but seems to me to be a problem when I think of it that God is supposedly going to judge us based on the rules he set up which he knows have been misrepresented by others causing the ones who either do the opposite things to suffer when the judgment comes(considering that this part is correct), or others to be repelled by the text and then reject the text and unfortunately miss out on afterlife in heaven. And here comes the problem, what is supposedly true and what isn't. What if God does not promise to us any afterlife and all the stories about it in the bible are actually twisted around by humans and are not true? I mean we can go on about every sentence in the book this way...


haha.. so true..

Of course you don't, but which "God" would you be talking to? The scriptures make it quite clear that all "gods" or "idols" comes from the work of Satan and his evil spirits.

I think you need to read up on your history as this definitely isn't true.

I think this is funny AND correct, seeing as how history seems to indicate that a lot of those Mansonite interpretations led people, either directly or indirectly to murder others.

Hey, glad the thread is picking up steam.

I think AJ brought up a really good point. I simply do not know a lot of things yet and I should back away and let someone with more experience than me chime in, everyone benefits that way, myself especially. The question about homosexuality made me think a lot, so I'm grateful that it was brought up.

Fishes also brought up a good point with regards to me needing to be more familiar with the Bible, I will definitely work on this from here on out. I also appreciate what Wizard said about this.

I think some of the negativity I have attracted so far stems from my beliefs about sin, which is understandable to me. A year ago if someone said the things to me that I am saying in this thread now I would have responded with the same skepticism. This is encouraging to me because it shows the progress I'm making in my life.

I'm also aware that my answers haven't been as clear as some people would like. This is all new for me. The drastic way in which my thinking and disposition has changed in the past few days is evidence to me that Jesus' promise of regeneration is true. I have made many pseudo-breakthroughs in the past and this is the first one that has felt truly genuine, so it is very comforting. People have been responding very positively to me in the last two days and I'm so encouraged by that. There is a lot I need learn in order to fully appreciate what has been happening to me and I will rely on God's spirit to guide me in that understanding.

Also it seems to me that jokerthief is sitting on a lot of understanding, I'd be interested in hearing him share some of it if he was open to that.

You have a very good point, the material that I suggested is simply the path that was afforded to me by God to get me to where I am today.

The Gospel of Thomas has a special significance to me because of the way it presents itself and teaches on sin and the nature of a person's relationship with God. I think once the mainstream begins to understand it it will become the game changer in winning people to Jesus. It's a truly powerful testimony.

you grew up christian right royce?

This is one of the lingering snags to my faith as well. I recommend Paul Copan's "Is God a Moral Monster" for a fairly deep, comprehensive treatment of the subject. It hasn't answered all of my questions, but it has come closer than anything else in helping me wrap my mind around it.

I was raised Catholic but my family stopped attending mass before I turned seven I believe. My parents never taught me the meaning of it, which is kind of painful for me. It likely means that they did not have an understanding of it themselves. I want to sit down and talk to my dad about a lot of things but I will wait until the time is right before I do so.

I would be careful before putting too much faith (no pun intended) in the veracity of the non-canonical gospels. All Dan Brown conspiracy theories aside, there is a good reason the books of the NT (and the OT for that matter) ended up in the canon, while Thomas and the other gnostic "gospels" did not. There are thousands of early, complete, historical manuscripts for the canonical gospels. On the contrary, there is literally no manuscript evidence for Thomas and the gnostics being legitimate early records known or relied upon by the early church. Nothing. In fact, the earliest church fathers (Clement, Ignatius, etc.) make thousands of references to the canonical NT, and zero to the gnostics (of which, by the way, the few early fragments date well into the second and third centuries after their writings).

I think the Gnostics are way off in their understanding of God. My understanding of him is probably more in line with that of Paul's than anyone elses.

The Gospel of Thomas seems very "gnostic" at first glance which is why I think it was adopted by them. The language of it extremely well used though and if the correct people read it I believe they will find a relationship with God and Jesus. The people it was intended for are probably those who have had an abusive or neglected childhood and live life taking advantage of others.

But this is exactly the point. The vast majority of the OT was written for a specific time to a specific audience and for a specific purpose. The passages in question were meant, first and foremost, to physically and culturally separate the nation of Israel in preparation for what would eventually come from that nation -- ie, Christ. So taking post-incarnate NT principles and applying them whole cloth to somehow pigeon-hole "the Christian God" as a wrathful monster is a mistake both theologically and historically. Recognizing this is not so much "revisionist" as it is taking the lens of the incarnation to understand the full breadth and meaning of the OT.

Actually, I don't think it's correct for me to make this statement. I can't know what another Christian's understanding of God is unless they tell me. His teachings make a lot of sense to me though.

I feel like I've made a big mistake in talking about Thomas, probably wont be posting about it much more.

Meh. I find the gospel of Thomas to be awesome. I'm glad you are open to it. And I'm glad you talk about it.

I do too. I honestly don't know how people would react once they were convicted of their sins though, which is why I am hesitant to talk about it. It's almost an inevitability once you start understanding the meaning of its sayings.

There are probably better ways for most people to get to that point than the one that was used for me and how it happens for someone else is not my call to begin with. The work God did in me to bring me to this point was very effective though. I have no problem living my life for him if the result is that he continues it.

I found you saying non Christians couldn't truly love more offensive.

Anyone is capable of it, but I believe if you don't have a relationship with God you wont be able to maintain it in a way that is healthy. You can be corrupted by the desire for it once it has been experienced. The things God reveals to you can protect you from that corruption.

Yeah i understand. I find that offensive.

It dehumanizes everybody but Christians in a way that has never lead to good things.

It's unfortunate, but everything I've experienced as a human being has led me to believe that it's true.

The reason Christians get a bad rap is because when we act genuine around non-Christians they withdraw into a shell fearing the emotions we're feeling. I've only been a Christian for 2 days and this is obvious to me already. It's not even about being converted, because I have observed it in myself when talking to a Christian who I knew was not actively pursuing my salvation. It's a fear of genuine emotion, because deep down the person knows it can destroy them. People who prefer feeling empty will run from you, people who want what you have will stick around. It's our responsibility to help anyone who asks for help with these things and it's also the only way we can guarantee our salvation. Jesus didn't come to gather people that would just praise him idly, he came to make disciples out of people who would continue his work and allow him to live in them.