Because God's judgement isn't on a bell curve. It is the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous category is occupied only by Jesus.

I don't think this analogy is parallel to the gospel.

To the original poster, your hypothetical person would go to hell according to the teachings of the Bible. For one to go to heaven one must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, believe that He died for our sins. Something I think is important to point out is that no good deed you can ever do, no matter how many can ever merit you salvation. For it is written in Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." We can't be saved through good works for our works, to the Lord, are like filthy rags. Hope this helps .

I actually think this is a perfect analogy, based on what the theists have said in this thread.

I don't understand how a theist can justify faith as having more value than morality. To simply say - God says it's so - and go about our lives, is the equivalent of listening to your political leader in Nazi Germany, and automatically grabbing a rifle and going hunting for Jews. Just because he says it's so, does not mean that it should not be put in question. Everything should be put in question and to avoid doing so, is to quite literally, stop your mind from working. Why does the belief in God advocate the paralysis of thought?

Can any theist philosophically explain why valuing faith over morality is correct? - apart from the: God says it's so - argument.

What you are asking is impossible to do on a philisophical level. To explain something philosophically suggests that the person is explaining something, in this example: the dilemma of "morality" vs faith, with a somewhat humanistic/mystical approach. Where am I, as a theist, to look for my morals, right vs wrong, justice vs injustice, etc. Should I turn to sociatal beliefs? Well we know there are no absolutes based on sociatal views, whats right here in N.America may not be considered right in S.America or Europe or in some tribes of Africa. What I am saying is that to even begin discussing something, in philisophical terms, that is absolute in relative terms is vain. What one atheist believes to be true may not be what another athiest believes to be true. Who is right? And more importantly who determines that which is right? If you are a theist, lets say a Christian, than you turn to scritpure. We believe scripture is absolute and that it is the measure of what is right and wrong. Its easy to explain such topics with scripture, similiary it is easy to explain things based on humanism but only one view never changes. A good example is abortion: it used to be illegal, now it is legal. According to scripture it is wrong, but according to society it is BECOMING more acceptable.

It would never happen. Even if it did, yea hell.

/thread

You're not saying anything here except - A. It's too difficult to explain philosophically, and B. God says it's so.

Explaining something philosophically does not necessarily mean it has to have a "humanistic/mystical" approach. By philosophically, all I mean is - logically. It is not logical to say - God says it's so...why? because God says it's so. This sort of reasoning does not stem from logic, but faith. This sort of reasoning paralyses the process of thought, by telling you - at what point to stop thinking/asking further questions.

Philosophy advocates the process of never stopping to ask further questions. Regardless of how much truth may lie within a given statement or fact, and regardless of authority. This is all I ask. Instead of saying - faith is more important than morality because in the scriptures God says it's so - I ask the theists to question: why would God come to the conclusion that faith is more important than morality? and why does God value faith over morality when determining whether one goes to Heaven or Hell?

This question is not impossible to answer philosophically. It is actually very easy to answer. Faith should not be valued higher than morality. Faith paralyses thought, morality allows for civilizations to flourish. Faith justifies inter-religious warfare, morality does not. Faith teaches people to not question authority, morality teaches people to be good to each other regardless of what authority says.

What exactly does faith have over morality? if anything?

Read my comment a couple posts back on good works.

What does this even mean? It's filthy to give all your possessions and money away to the poor and starving? It's filthy to save thousands of children's lives? It's filthy to help that weak grandma carry her groceries across the street?

Do you even know the definition of filthy?

Two points:

1) I didn't say that God should punish or reward on the basis of righteous/unrighteous. Rather, I said that it seems like it should be on the basis of more or less moral. It seems like even God should be able to recognize that Raoul Wallenberg is a more moral person than Adolf Hitler, even if God thinks that Wallenberg is not a righteous person.

2) Unless you are a complete Calvinist and believe that we don't have anything to do with being saved, then you do think that our actions or beliefs have an impact on our salvation. Even if it is only having faith in Jesus, that is still something that God uses to distinguish between the saved and unsaved.

Why not?

It means that your good works will never merit salvation, your good works mean nothing to God. People on this thread use crime in society to make analogies...one analogy is this: I broke into your house and rape your wife, killed your kids. No matter how much community service and good things I do I still deserve to be put away. Society won't outweigh all the nice things you have done in the past if all of a sudden you go kill someone. God is similar He won't look favourably on you if you think your "good works" merit some kind of forgiveness.

But he will look favourably on you, if you firmly believe in God and you speak to God daily and kill your children because God told you to do so? There has actually been cases of this.

OP sounds like the antichrist, of course you're going to hell.

Yes there have been cases people have claimed to do such things in the name of God. However it is written: "Though shall not murder." A characteristic of God is that He will never contradict Himself and that He only speaks truth so as this is a blatent contradiction of scripture we can dismiss the fact that God told this person to do such horrible things.

So now you're saying that morality does count? and all that "filthy rags" stuff is not so filthy after all?

Let me clear this up for you...What I am saying is that is important to keep God's Law...10 Commandments, etc. What is impossible for human beings to do is keep his Law all the time. As a Christian I have lied, cheated, stolen, used the Lord's name in the vain before I was converted. I am converted now, do I still lie? Yes, and I am ashamed of it. Have I ever done anything displeasing to God? Yes, and unfortunately I will continue to fail until I die. However now as a Christian I have a desire in my heart to please God. Does it please God for me to keep his commandments? Yes. Is it possible for me to always keep his commandements? No. P.S. When I say "commandments" I mean everything that God has said to do and not to do, not just "The 10 Commandements" Does the fact that I try hard and do my best to keep his commandments merit salvation? No. Thats what the "filthy" rags is referring to. Not that it isn't good to help the poor, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, etc...this stuff is great. What is greater in God's eyes is to have faith in Him and to believe. Because of the Grace of God Christians do these things not because they believe it will merit anything from God but rather they do such things because they love Him and the things Jesus did for us.

Greater to have faith in him - an omnipotent being, than help the poor? For an omnipotent being your god surely seems pretty insecure.

An interesting word you said is "omnipotent". Very true He is omnipotent and if it is His will for someone that is poor to be helped than that person will be helped. What I think is important is to stay on topic, the OP asked in his first post "My question is. If I was to die tomorrow - judging by the words written in the Bible or the Quran - would I be put in hell? or heaven? and why?
" In short hell and because you haven't put your faith in Jesus and what he did on the cross.
Knef, if you like we can open another thread discussing the nature of the Biblical God, I'm more than happy to help you understand this .

Glad you said this. This leads me to my next point.

So the way to get into heaven is by: A - Obeying all of God's teachings, or at least attempting to obey them (this include commandments and scripture teachings) and by: B - Having faith in your God. B is more important than A, but when B contradicts with A, A becomes more important (in the child killing example).

Now. God does not speak out against torture or slavery.

Exodus 21:20-21
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
(some beating is allowed as long as it does not lead to death)

Deuteronomy 25:2
If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves.
(some beatings are even deserved)

Proverbs 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.
(the first of many proverbs about beating fools)

Proverbs 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.

Proverbs 26:3
A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!

Proverbs 20:30
Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.
(beatings can improve you)

Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"

Now. Since God does not consider torture or slavery (as something unworthy of heaven) if I were to be a firm believer in God, but also possess sadistic personality traits, and I decided that on a daily basis, I would seek out random strangers (who do not believe, who are fools) and I would lock them up, torture them daily and treat them as my servants - according to the Bible scriptures, and your rules for getting into heaven quoted above: I would still get into heaven.

Do you think this is right?

Ok, the way into heaven is like follows: salvation is by grace ALONE. Good works is a product of grace and the saving work Christ did in your heart.

To answer your question is that right? No! Actually alot of what you suggested is totally contrary to scripture. It is written: Romans 13:1-7 states, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” We are to obey the law of the land as long as it doesn't contradict God's Law. So assaulting someone, kidnapping them, and torturing them will get you in alot of hot water in our courts of law and therefore a sin.

So now you're saying that one must obey societal laws and morality as well in order to avoid sin and get into heaven.

Wasn't it you that said this earlier?

Contradiction much?

Moving on from your contradiction, is it scripture or societal law that has the final say? Because if it's scripture....then I certainly don't see what's wrong with torture or slavery.

Am i saying that me must obey societial law and "morality" in order to avoid sin and get into heaven, NO! We must accept Christ as our Savior, that and that alone gets us to heaven. A condition that I mentioned is that yes, we must obey societial law ONLY as long as it doesn't contradict the teaching of scripture. Societal law, however, is not the absolute measure of justice and will not always have the answers.

Torture and slavery do not contradict the teachings of scripture. In fact, with regards to torture specifically its quite the opposite. Based on the quotes I provided 2 posts ago, it appears that God actually advocates beatings and torture....

Now, my examples which break your logic in half will be Ancient Rome and modern India/Malaysia/Indonesia:

In Ancient Rome - where torture and slavery were commonplace, and part of the societal law/morality, would one have gotten into heaven if they enjoyed torturing random non-believers from time to time, but were also devout Catholics, with a firm belief in Jesus? They are not breaking the societal law, and they are not breaking God's law....

In India, Indonesia and Malaysia where slavery is commonplace today, does one who keeps a sex slave, a food slave, and a cleaning slave, for the price of a $1 a day, still get into heaven? (mind you, this person is also a devout Catholic who firmly believes in Jesus). Do you think it's right that they get into heaven the same way, that a person who dedicates all their wealth to the poor does? After all, according to your requirements, they both equally meet the requirements for heaven...

Come on, stop torturing the guy with logic, you've heard him:

That's all that matters so everyone who accepts Christ will go to heaven and every atheist, scientologist, animist and others will go to hell. Except for me - I'll be inserted into the Matrix.

Ok where to start, I'm not sure if you understand anything I've said in the previous posts. "Would one have gotten into heaven if they enjoyed torturing random non-believers from time to time?" There is no pleasure in the beating of a servant, for the good of a beating is the discipline in the servant. But the beating of random people is assault and we are to "do to others as you would have them do to you." If a master beats a good and faithful servant than yes it is a sin according to the Bible. For it is written in Colossians 4:1 "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven."
Now with the India example: "does one who keeps a sex slave, a food slave, and a cleaning slave, for the price of a $1 a day, still get into heaven? (mind you, this person is also a devout Catholic who firmly believes in Jesus)." This person may be a devout Catholic, definately not a Christian though lol. Without getting sidetracked about the unscriptural things the Roman Catholic Church feels is okay let me explain why this example is a sin.
The Law explicitly condemns all of the following:
Rape (Dt 22:25-27)
Prostitution (23:17-18)
Sex outside of marriage, whether consensual or not (Ex 22:16-17, Dt 22:28-29)
Sex with a slave who was betrothed or married to someone else (Lev 19:20-22)
Therefore any forced intercourse would have been against both the letter and the spirit of the law.

Oops, so looks like Catholics are not making it to heaven either, only the correct type of Christians are.