How to turn a intelligent religous person into an atheist? (for atheists) - Page 2 - Religion, God, and Theology

Seriously.... before you decide to get into a debate with "a intelligent person"... you may want to work on your grammar a bit.

Also... what you are wanting to do is largely the reason atheist are put out with religious people. You are wanting to go change peoples ways of thinking to be the same as yours.
That's not much different than me wanting to witness to you and get you saved.

Perhaps you should concentrate on your own beliefs and not worry so much about trying to convince others that their way of thinking or believing is wrong.

Joey hits the nail on the head again.
You cant apply logic to explain the universe, we simply havnt a clue.
If people want to believe theres a 'god' why not.
Your saying its better to have no belief?

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07-31-2010 , 06:35 PM

#27

AKSpartan

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It's better not to "believe in" things without actual evidence. To believe that an intelligent creator would resemble the Christian god is just silly, but people are willing to suffer cognitive dissonance to avoid having to actually confront their mortality.

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07-31-2010 , 08:12 PM

#28

RLK

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Originally Posted by jontsef

Pascal's Wager is so incredibly inept and pointless from a logical point of view.

I am curious. How would you construct your counter argument?

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07-31-2010 , 09:40 PM

#29

Gunth0807

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Originally Posted by rayfox111

Joey hits the nail on the head again.
You cant apply logic to explain the universe, we simply havnt a clue.
If people want to believe theres a 'god' why not.
Your saying its better to have no belief?

Yes, that is exactly what they say.

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It's better not to "believe in" things without actual evidence.

Uh...I think most Christians would agree with you on this.

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To believe that an intelligent creator would resemble the Christian god is just silly, but people are willing to suffer cognitive dissonance to avoid having to actually confront their mortality.

Why is it silly? Just because you believe it to be silly doesn't make it so, nor does it make the last part of this claim a fact.

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07-31-2010 , 10:47 PM

#30

jontsef

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Originally Posted by RLK

I am curious. How would you construct your counter argument?

I'd rather not discuss it here. I sent you a PM.

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07-31-2010 , 11:09 PM

#31

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyDiamonds

Seriously.... before you decide to get into a debate with "a intelligent person"... you may want to work on your grammar a bit.

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Originally Posted by JoeyDiamonds

Without evil...their can be no good.

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08-01-2010 , 01:21 AM

#32

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by rizeagainst

I just love irony.

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08-01-2010 , 01:50 AM

#33

Original Position

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Originally Posted by RLK

I am curious. How would you construct your counter argument?

The "Hermit God" version of Pascal's Wager. This God sends you to eternal Hell if you believe in a God, but rewards you with heaven if you don't. Basically, it is just Pascal's Wager in reverse--showing that disbelief in God is not weakly dominated by belief in God.

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08-11-2010 , 09:32 PM

#34

finknik

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Originally Posted by Butcho22

but the bible specifically tells you to try and convert people, so...

The Bible says that Christians are to convert others. Exactly who is telling Atheists to convert Christians?

IMO, if a Christian confronts you with their/your beliefs, it's not your job to convert them. They're trying to convert you, so all you need to do is defend your belief. The only thing that will change someone's mind about their belief is a strong defense against it. And if you don't have that, you probably should reconsider your own beliefs. Ducey?

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08-11-2010 , 10:33 PM

#35

brandx

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Originally Posted by finknik

I could not agree more. Since I have no beliefs, I try to help them convert me by having bible study together.

Last edited by brandx; 08-11-2010 at 10:35 PM. Reason: spelling

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08-11-2010 , 11:07 PM

#36

finknik

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Are you being sarcastic? You shouldn't help them convert you. You should just listen to their opinion with an open-mind. If you're and open-minded Atheist you would be quick to have a bible-study with a Christian. On the opposite end, if you're an open-minded Christian, you would be patient in listening to an Atheist's skepticism.

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08-11-2010 , 11:20 PM

#37

Hardball47

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Originally Posted by Original Position

The "Hermit God" version of Pascal's Wager. This God sends you to eternal Hell if you believe in a God, but rewards you with heaven if you don't. Basically, it is just Pascal's Wager in reverse--showing that disbelief in God is not weakly dominated by belief in God.

Come on now. Honestly ask yourself it that makes any freaking sense whatsoever. "Pascal's wager in reverse" is about as meaningful as the question, "what colour is time?"

If such a god exists, and with a modicum of reasoning and logic, it wouldn't possibly take such action.

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08-11-2010 , 11:47 PM

#38

batair

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Originally Posted by Hardball47

Not that a God who rewards based on belief makes any sense at all in the first place so Pascal is already asking what color is time imo. But what if there is a God who cant be known by humans but doesn't like unfounded and unjustified belief and punishes it because it goes against the reason he gave us?

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08-11-2010 , 11:51 PM

#39

finknik

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Not that a God who rewards based on belief makes any sense at all in the first place

He rewards us based on our love for Him. That doesn't make sense? He's not gonna reward someone who doesn't believe in him. Are you gonna give a wedding gift to someone who hates you?

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08-11-2010 , 11:57 PM

#40

brandx

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Quote:

Originally Posted by finknik

Not attempting to be sarcastic at all. I have no belief to defend. Being an ex-Christian, I consider myself open minded. So do all Christians. Christians should be open minded, willing and knowledgeable enough to answer any and all skepticism which is bible related.

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08-12-2010 , 12:00 AM

#41

Hardball47

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Originally Posted by batair

Not that a God who rewards based on belief makes any sense at all in the first place so Pascal is already asking what color is time imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

But what if there is a God who cant be known by humans but doesn't like unfounded and unjustified belief and punishes it because it goes against the reason he gave us?

Then this god would have the wisdom to help remove his creations' ignorance and unjustified beliefs by teaching them the truth.

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08-12-2010 , 12:02 AM

#42

batair

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Originally Posted by finknik

He rewards us based on our love for Him. That doesn't make sense? He's not gonna reward someone who doesn't believe in him. Are you gonna give a wedding gift to someone who hates you?

No that makes no sense either sense you cant love what you dont know. So hes not punishing people for not loving him he is punishing them for honest ignorance. Which makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Hardball47

The systems of rewards and punishment differ based on your brand of theism - mine being belief first, followed by personal and interpersonal actions, but not belief alone. Believing by itself is not a get-out-hell-free card.

Then this god would have the wisdom to help remove his creations' ignorance and unjustified beliefs by teaching them the truth.

No he cant remove false belief because of free will or something.

So the question is if there is a God who cant be known would it be reasonable for him to reward based on disbelief instead of false belief.

Last edited by batair; 08-12-2010 at 12:11 AM.

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08-12-2010 , 12:13 AM

#43

finknik

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No that makes no sense either since you cant love what you dont know. So hes not punishing people for not loving him he is punishing them for honest ignorance. Which makes no sense.

If you believe Jesus rose from the dead, how can you not believe he's God? I love Jesus because he endured the worst imaginable pain just for us! How can you not fall on your knees in love for such a God?

He's not asking you to love what you don't know. He's asking you to love what you do know. Jesus' resurrection is a historical event, just like George Washington's crossing the Delaware. No one is alive that witnessed it. There is no film of it. It's simply part of history.

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08-12-2010 , 12:16 AM

#44

batair

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Originally Posted by finknik

I dont believe Jesus rose form the dead or was in contact with God if there is one.

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08-12-2010 , 12:19 AM

#45

finknik

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Believing by itself is not a get-out-hell-free card.

Hardball, the Bible doesn't say that belief alone is a get-out-of-hell-free card. There is a verse that says something like "belief without actions is worthless". We can't believe in Jesus' teachings and still live in sin.

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08-12-2010 , 12:20 AM

#46

finknik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

I dont believe Jesus rose form the dead or was in contact with God if there is one.

Do you believe George Washington crossed the Delaware?

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08-12-2010 , 12:31 AM

#47

batair

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Originally Posted by finknik

Do you believe George Washington crossed the Delaware?

Yes.

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08-12-2010 , 12:37 AM

#48

finknik

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Originally Posted by batair

Yes.

What proof do you have of that??

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08-12-2010 , 12:41 AM

#49

finknik

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There is an equal amount of historical evidence that supports the claim "George Washington crossed the Delaware" as there is that supports the claim "Jesus Christ rose from the dead".

Not to mention, 11 out of the 12 apostles died in defense that Jesus rose from the dead! Don't you think if if they were lying, they would have admitted it before being persecuted? They witnessed it, and were so moved by it that they were wiling to die defending the fact that it happened. Is that not enough proof for you?

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08-12-2010 , 12:53 AM

#50

Artdogg

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Originally Posted by ilovedonks

I believe any idea of a transcendental deity has its roots in man's existential awareness of his own mortality. It is an external manifistation of an internal need for protection and meaning, a necessary mental creation by all early civilisations when they began their search for answers.

nowhere near sufficient

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