applause.gif

Presuming you're not a massive douchebag, something like: "Thanks, you too".

You did make a "there are two types of atheists in this world..." claim, and that is a false dichotomy.

I don't think I twisted your words at all.

If anything, I think you twisted my words...

What part of what I described is freaking out? Feeling uncomfortable? Not knowing what to say? Or the part where she ends up actually saying thanks but no thanks?

What a freak out!!

Anyway, aside from the fact that you have suggested that I'm twisting your words, when I am not, and then you have (mildly) twisted my words, I disagree with you.

I see your side of the argument as being consistent with the conformist, childish "I have to fit in or I'm weird" mentality.

Whether or not it offends in you, I don't honor Christmas as a holiday, and when someone brings it up by wishing me merry christmas, I have no problem what-so-ever ignoring it, but I also have no problem engaging them for a moment and telling them I'm not religious, and whatever other pleasantry you want to throw on there to ensure that, oh no!, I don't seem like a dick.

Maybe you will feel liberated when you are old and crusty and ... ack! ... don't care what people think of you?! Won't that be great. Even if you are, dare I say it, weird! You can just be yourself, and let the chips fall where they may.

I'm not Muslim but I always respond, "Wa `Alaykum as-Salaam". I don't have anything against people wishing me peace.

If you can't see the difference in the meaning between these two sentences, then there isn't much I can do for you.

Responding to the rest of your post would just be arguing semantics, repeating myself, or defending myself against unfounded assumptions you've made about my character (I have no idea why you think I care whether or not you celebrate Christmas.) I'm not going to do that. I'll debate the issue, but I'm not going to start a flame war.

Just like the newly-saved obnoxiously loud fundamentalist Christians that lead people to think all Christians reject biological evolution and take the Bible literally?

What's worse is either one who's also just quit smoking.

I believe "thank-you" was one of my first suggestions. Note she did not say "Happy Hanukkah."

Then they should read St Augustine who said, "Preach the Gospel constantly. If necessary, use words." Our vocation is to show forth the image of Christ, not carve it into our neighbors' foreheads.

Agreed 100%

i think it's an interesting topic if you decide to think about it... how do you maintain your own integrity or genuinely reply when someone you feel is confused confronts you?

one strategy i think is to just sit back and let it soak in that what they're saying is funny and sad at the same time, what an interesting mix.

are you going to try to expose this person's faults, or what you believe their faults to be? after all, you just met them.

maybe they are only saying these things because it's the social norm, how do you know? i have jumped to conclusions too soon before i'm sure.

so say you just go along with the social game and shake hands proving you're not armed (with your right hand at least...) do you compromise your values this way, your intellectual gaze? the other person initiated the conversation, and you just shook their outreached hand and reciprocated their greeting, even though you felt silly doing it.

are you angry that this person made you feel silly? if that's so why don't you think about why it is that someone else following social norms you understand and don't choose to emphasize in your life makes you feel silly. if you understand that difference, then you won't have any problem feeling silly, or playing along with that person. at least then, you'll have more fun. and after all, Jesus would let them be exactly who they are right? well at least, if they weren't money changers...

This made me think about why I say "Merry Christmas" during the season to total strangers. I think it's because it's the one time it's acceptable to move outside the social norm which is to just get on with your business and have as little contact as possible with other members of the human race.

I can finally just say to someone I don't know that I wish them well. And I do. I wish you well, BTW.

But it also works because it has culturally mandated boundaries. "Merry Christmas" is a pleasantry that no one expects to lead to intimacy. I'm kind of a fan of positive moments between people. Nice to have an excuse for them. You'd be amazed how many people react suspiciously if you give them a simple smile and say, "Nice day, isn't it?" And of course, you have to have a nice day to say it. Merry Christmas works for at least the whole four weeks of Advent and people accept it because it's okay then for a stranger to offer you that moment.

Good ideas in your post zzzed.

I reply with "I SAID GOOD DAY SIR"

How about "Merry Christmas to you too"

The people who are most likely to have a problem are highly religious non christens. I doubt most Atheist think much about it.

I'm an atheist and I'll respond with Merry Christmas, there's no harm in it and it is more of a cultural holiday than a religious one to a lot of people.

It is certainly rude to respond to Merry Christmas with anything other than a social pleasantry of equal nature.

However, if those who say "merry christmas" are aware that it makes many people uncomfortable, that can be rude too.

If you want to give a pleasantry that has the least possibility to offend at the holiday time, stick with "Happy Holidays": its non-denominational and applies to everyone, even atheists (unless they specifically don't take time off for the stat holidays, but well, you can't please everyone now can you!)

If people are offended by "merry christmas" then I blame them and not the ones who wish them "merry christmas".

Sure, dislike all the cultural habits you wish. We're not hermits however, but share a lot of space with other people and some acceptance of other people's traditions it is reasonable to expect, especially when we're talking about something as innocent as a two-word greeting that is fairly mainstream.

I don't have problems with wishing or being wished a merry christmas, Ramadan kareem, happy hanukkah, birthday congratulations or wishing a happy new year and I'm somewhat confused as to why any of these should be seen as insulting.

I didn't say not to say it. I said if you want to give a pleasantry at the holiday time that has the least chance to offend, then use happy holidays. If it doesn't bother you that it may make some people uncomfortable, then use Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, whatever.

The troubling aspect of this to me is that people, atheists and theists, seem to be offended that someone might not enjoy being wished a merry christmas, and/or might not want to wish other people a merry christmas.

Why isn't the same spirit of magnanimity with which religious differences are all washed away as december 25 approaches and we can/should/must all take pleasure in wishing and being wished a merry christmas, be applied toward people who (for whatever reason) aren't into it?

Obviously young/immature people are overly concerned with what others think of them, and are obsessed with fitting in, looking cool, etc. But little kids also pick on and beat up each other in the school yard. Not all "traditions" are good or useful.

I've said it before, but I work around the most sexist, cultural elitist, Ivy league obsessed, republican, rich, poor and/or foreigner hating, church going, hateful, *******s in the world. And they feel- nay, they know! that christmas and christians are under attack, and screw all that, it offends them when someone wishes them "happy holidays" because its Merry Christmas, damn it! and schools should have prayers, just like when their parents were kids, and cities should put up nativity scenes, and churches should get special privileges, and towel heads (much less atheists - I don't even know if they are aware of us) can go to hell if they don't like it.

The point is, any time I even consider agreeing with them on any issue, I have to take a step back and really think it through. And let me tell you, I'm certain these guys all think that anyone who doesn't return a merry christmas is a dick, a douchebag, and should probably get out of this country.

Even if you think culture trumps religion, and it is just being friendly to greet or reply in kind with merry christmas, why must we sustain and buoy the "its rude"-to-abstain camp?

/ramble ramble

I think we agreeing, yes?

I think I understand your sentiment about how social norms can be a vehicle or opening for getting in touch with people and cannot argue with that one bit.

I think the atheist's issue with social norms is why open me with old traditions, when understanding where those traditional givens come from may shed a different light on them in a more contemporary context.

I guess it's also kind of silly to think about things that way, while at the same time being important to understand the weight of one's words. Wow now I'm starting to confuse myself. Or am I, I'll let you be the judge.

Does feeling good vibes compromise the intellect, and does thinking intellectually sacrifice feel? Or must there be a marriage to reach a higher level.

i say merry christmas and do the whole christmas celebration. i even go to the cathedral on christmas eve with my family (although this is a tradition im thinking about cutting loose this year). christmas is becoming more and secular holiday, its more about the food, presents and spending time with your family these days than anything else.

I don't say Merry Christmas or sing Christmas carols. But it's not just because I'm an atheist. It's because a) I'm shy, and b) I can't sing. Actually, I suspect if I were more of an extrovert I would be much more likely to be religious than I am now.

Christmas has become very secular to many people. I think many people who say merry Christmas just do it out of habit or reflex. Just say it back, or 'you too" and be done with it. if you feel the need to confront or irritate veryone who says this to you, it says a lot more about you and your self image than anything else.

Just as people who constantly try to preach religion to you are irritating to an atheist, so is an atheist irritating who is constanlty on the hunt to start an argument about it.

the people who garner the most respect are the ones who dont always have somehting to add, but when they do it is well thought out and carries weight. When you constantly pound your ideas over and over, people tune you out.

In other words, pick your battles. this one aint worth fighting.

honestly not saying something pleasant back is very dickish, justify it however you want

i like christmas. i wish atheists had holidays. OP, you sound too sensitive.