bully is the right word

what happens if the kid doesn't want to go to church/mosque/synagogue?

A) threats of eternal damnnation
B) violence
C) threats of violence
D) threats of social exclusion
E) verbal abuse
F) any/all of the above

First of all based on what you have been saying itt I would find it hard to believe you are a practicing Catholic. Are you? And if so how can you and Doggg say these nasty things about a religion of Abraham when... The teachings of Christ emplores Jews/Christians/Muslims to work together. I created this thread to work with people like you coolerboy and doggg to see how we can prevent Islamophobia. Can we try and do that or shall you continue in your campaign of fear mongering?

The most losing aspect of your misconceptions is that you are engaging in a shock treatment of Islam.

I noticed that you disregard the high possibility that if you were in a position of power you would be banned from the UK. So your saying you actually don't care that your Islamophobic comments would get you banned from the UK?

If you honestly think that you are engaging me in fair and moderate style, as opposed to fear mongering and spreading Anti Muslim views, you are mistaken. It is an undeniable fact that so far itt you have been spreading anti Muslim views that by all means cross into the category of hate. You start off (your first post itt) by saying "Islam is a bad religion" What an absurd way to generalize how over 1.5 billion people go about their daily lives.


Coolerboy takes the context of this following Surat and transforms the meaning of it into his own interpretation, in a similar style to the hate group SIOA . Here is what he does.... Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.

here is the argument style of SIOA,




IMO Coolerboy You have crossed the line and entered into Islamophobia from your first post itt and in subsequent posts. The UK has taken steps towards eliminating hatred towards Islam, these steps are being taken to prevent violence.

Here is the official reasoning and stated policies of the United Kingdom wrt the ban of Robert Spencer, this stated policy of the UK would likewise ban Coolerboy (if he was in a postion of power) from entering. The policy is,

"After careful consideration, she [the Home Secretary] personally directed that you should be excluded from the United Kingdom on the grounds that your presence here is not conducive to the public good.

The Home Secretary has reached this decision because you have brought yourself within the scope of the list of unacceptable behaviours by making statements that may foster hatred which might lead to inter-community violence in the UK"

Coolerboy I would like to extend to you one final offer in reasoning with you, can you work with me on how we can prevent Islamophobia. Or shall you to continue to seek to divide?

thekid, what do you mean by prevent islamophobia? Because you keep saying "I want to work with you on how we can prevent islamophobia", but it seems to me like you just mean "prevent people from saying anything bad about islam".

Can you clarify what you mean by "I want to work with you on how we can prevent islamophobia"?

Perhaps clarifying what you mean by "islamophobia" might also be helpful?

Kid,

All due respect you don't know what you are talking about. You have a pie in the sky concept of solidarity which is not realistic.

Can I get a citation here because I don't think this is true.

Coolerboy and others itt have outlined their thoughtful criticisms of Islam, that is not the same thing as Islamaphobia. A phobia is an irrational fear. IIT we have seen articulate criticism of Islam that has not been addressed by you. Many people have rational concerns and problems with Islam which is not a phobia.

You are perpetuating Islamaphobia by not addressing the tough questions.

Sure my pleasure, when I say work with people on how we can prevent Islamophobia, I am taking about how we can address those using extreme tactics to negate Islam. BTW I myself have been a vocal critic of Muslim majority countries(not to be confused with Islam and the Quran) and in agreement with those who correctly criticize certain polices in Saudia Arabia which IMO is a result of human failure.

As for the religion of Islam itself, the Quran and the believers of Islam, a critic crosses the line IMO, when they feel Islam is inferior to their own personal belief system. This is not to be confused with Islam being superior to ones personal belief system. When their are Catholics itt saying nothing but negativity toward Islam but at the same time praising the Christian teachings of Jesus, it becomes Islamophobia. And goes against the teachings of Christ and the current Pope of the Catholic church . Pope Francis encourages Christians to respect Islam.

I view Islamophobia as a reference to prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of Muslims or of ethnic groups perceived to be Muslim. And to use a quote here "The concept (Islamophobia) also encompasses the opinions that Islam has no values in common with other cultures, is inferior to the West[/B] and is a violent political ideology rather than a religion"

So I fully believe coolguy to be engaging in a campaign that paints Islam as inferior based on his style of argument. Additionally Doggg has a view that "almost every" Muslim majority country practices discrimination against Christians.

Doggg also incorrectly stated in his first post in the black hole thread that "almost every" Muslim majority country has a ban on importing bibles, "pick one any one". I don't think Muslims or Christians around the world in (Muslim majority) countries whom live together, often working alongside each other, would appreciate that false statement by Doggg.

Doggg was thoroughly debunked on his bible theory, I am hopeful he along with coolguy can address the topic of how we can prevent Islamophobia. After all Doggg and coolguy if you guys are Catholic , Pope Francis is encouraging us all to hold respect towards the Muslim faith.

I will probably be busy for at a least few hours, and will not be back until later to post more replies.

Sure, Of course this has nothing to do with the specific stance of Doggg and Coolguy toward Islam but this will be easy to reply to. I can pull out quotes from the Torah, The Bible, and the Quran all stating in some fashion to respect the religions of Abraham. This is an undeniable fact and I will post this information in full later.
'
EDIT: Lemon do you understaing my opinion of how Coolguy would be banned from entering the UK? I disagree that that Coolguys comments are of respectable disagreement but rather (I will quote the stated policy of the United Kingdom here for you) for "making statements that may foster hatred which might lead to inter-community violence in the UK"

How did this come as a surprise to you? You know about 9/11 right? We live in a time where almost no one in the Western world speaks positively on Islam. Being open minded re Islam isn't exactly en vogue right now.

I think the key to preventing Islamophobia is education. The difference between healthy concern and a phobia is knowledge.

Violence happens everywhere, I don't think this is a point of contention.

1985 ish

Depends where you live. if you happen to settle next to Moslem extremists then life for you would be pretty bad I would imagine. There are many places where life could be ok though. One distinction I would make is even though life may be ok there it does not follow that Islam is a positive force.

Have a read over the wiki page called "Criticism of Islam" linked below. Notice the title of the page is not "Islamaphobia", these are articulate critical assessments of the religion ( I am not saying I agree with all of them).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

I understand your opinion. However, we are not discussing in the UK we are discussing on an internet forum where open debate is encouraged. Frankly, I am not interested in the UK's freedom of speech laws. This thread is about Islam; I am more interested in hearing you thoughtfully defend islam in regards to:

-Apostasy
-Slavery
-Muhammad's Pedophilia

EDIT: one comment I will make re freedom of speech: The UK is making their laws to keep the peace, they are not setting out to parse truth from falsehood. Just because a comment is inflammatory doesn't mean it isn't true. Critical commentary on religion is always going to be inflammatory but it doesn't mean it isn't necessary or true.

[QUOTE=thekid345;41092835]First of all based on what you have been saying itt I would find it hard to believe you are a practicing Catholic. Are you?

I noticed that you disregard the high possibility that if you were in a position of power you would be banned from the UK. So your saying you actually don't care that your Islamophobic comments would get you banned from the UK?


I'm not a practicing anything. Secondly I'm fully aware that the majority of muslim are perfectly fine people, my issue is not with them. My issue is with the militant muslims. It is impossible to deny that Islam and Islamic terror are connected. It is also impossible to deny that these verses of violence in the Quran and the example set by Muhammad greatly influence the militant muslims. There are Imams who interpret these verses as a call to violence against disbelievers (clearly I don't mean all Imams). Those Imams, and the militant muslims speak Arabic so clearly they're not mistranslating something. These terrorists are clearly motivated strictly by religion and believe that they are on a mission from god to kill disbelievers. When there are many passages in a holy book that can be and are interpreted as god commanding the followers of that religion to kill people who are not followers of that religion that is very dangerous.

If no one interpreted it this way there would be no issues. However people do interpret it this way and it's not just people in the western world. There are muslims who interpret it this way.

Thekid. I hope you'd agree that militant muslims are influenced by parts of the Quran and Muhammad.

but how do we know the NT without knowing the Torah?

Don't proselytize. It's creepy and unwanted.

If this is meant to apply to everyone, then it is pretty obviously false.

"Militant Muslims" as you say, IMO are a mixture of things, some are drug lords/war lord looking to make money. Mostly they are con artists. Often they con there supporters into believing their (incorrect) interpratation of the Quran.

The problem is you have chosen to use Osama Bin Laden as a representative of the Quran, shall we use bible believing slaveholders in the USA prior to 1865 as the representatives of Christianity? Are these peoples interpretations of the Bible final? Shall we use Joe Stalin as the representative of a non believer in any deity, mono or poly?

So this is why your argument is flawed from the beginning, you said Islam is a bad religion and continued on with a barrage of completely negative attacks without an objective view.

Most present day scholars and the greatest majority of Muslim's worldwide agree that people like Osama Bin Laden were "deviant" Muslims. What I can say IMO is those who were responsible for 9/11 were deviant people and human failures.

That being said here is an important piece of information relevant to this discussion. The CIA/Pakistan ISI supported and facilitated the training of the Mujhajeedeen in Afganistan during the Soviet- Afghanistan war. In moving forward if you are going to blame Islam for 9/11 we will have problem, the responsibility of 9/11 and subsequent terrorist attacks are partially a result of United States/Pakistan support of Muhajeedeen groups in Afganistan and Pakistan in the 1980s whom would later go on to form the Taliban/ Al Queada. Human failure as well

You need to better understand the context of the following Surat,

"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression"

Not to mention other Surats which you have taken out of context. And I don't think you have acknowledged any of my listed Surats which contradict your misconceptions

Oh go ahead

fine me one exception and prove my whole sweeping generalisation wrong

I obviously didn't mean every single occurrance

but mostly, that's how religion spreads

there's a reason why children the vast majority of the time become the religion of their parents

it's not their free will

You are clearly a very religious person and thus will not be swayed by reason. Let this argument die

Nah, I just think your description of an ordinary and practically universal feature of growing up in a society as "bullying" is ludicrous. Yes, sure, some religious groups and individuals absolutely do bully their children into adhering to their religion. But I have no reason to think this is the majority of religious people. It certainly isn't the case in my experience.

The reason why the vast majority of children follow the religion of their parents and/or peers is more likely to be because they want to than because they are bullied into it.

How do you know their interpretation is not correct? If a Moslem wants to interpret the Quran a certain way who are you to tell him he is wrong?

You cherry pick the section which speaks about being at peace with people but there are other sections that seem to promote violence:

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers..."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

If you only look at what the Quran says I would not come to the conclusion that this is a religion of peace. IMO many extreme Muslim groups believe they are doing the right thing in fighting for and giving their life for Islam.

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

your missing my point and you ignored the main message of my last post.

Hello all reading this. I do not want to hijack this thread, but I wanted to post this so others can be aware, and I'm only making this single post ITT on this.

I suspect there is a very decent chance that thekid345 is a fed trying to entrap people.

thekid345, stop PMing me. I don't care that cats are sacred in your religion, I don't care that in the Muslim world if a man brutalizes cats he would be properly punished, and I don't care that you're probably far from anything I could imagine.

Stop PMing me.

Hey look I have some quotes that are really bad!

Hey look I have some quotes that are really good!

As for that Lirva guy, yay I pm him twice to talk about cats in the Muslim world, where they are loved and treated with respect, I think that's neat to say the least.

Tomorrow I will try and provide some better responces to the most harsh critics of Islam itt and it will be very easy IMO. That being said I came across quite the informative site about Islamophiba. Contributors include many well known modern day scholars/historians.

http://www.islamophobia.org/news.php

Anyways what stuck out the most was I learned anti Muslim views are out of control in the USA. A recent Wapo poll found that 49% of Americans have a negative view of Islam.

Clowns (yes I know its an aggressive word but I used it) like Robert Spencer/Pam Geller actually appear on networks like FoxNews. This imo is what has partially led to the pointless backwards negative view of Islam here in America. These cherry picking misrepresentations of Islam remind me of the lunatic Christians who want to hate on Jews for "Killing Jesus".

Dogs aren't though, so maybe you guys can still be friends.

one more key side note to keep in mind, from the website islamophobia.org,

"the New York Times noted today that accused Norway murderer Anders Behring Breivik cited the work of anti-Jihad activist Robert Spencer 64 times in his 1,500 page manifesto, which also included a large portion of the Unabomber's writing. Now, Spencer and several other people who crusade against extreme forms of Islam are pushing back, and arguing the media is unfairly focusing on Breivik's citations. "


It really comes down to weather you want to be on the side of peace, love and justice( support of true Islam, its followers and a better understanding of Islam) or irrational fear and hatred,( Osama Bin Laden, Anders Breivik and Robert Spencer)

IMO if one is on the true side of Islam that would mean you are against Osama Bin Laden, Anders Breivik and Robert Spencer. If you want to work against Islam and its 1.5 billion followers then you are a supporter of the ideology of those 3 people.

Yes its really that simple , but I'm sure there may still be critics (specifically coolguy123 and doggg) whom think Islam is inferior to there own beliefs, in which I will gladly debunk you.


Additionally, by all means I am a vocal critic of certain policies of Saudi Arabia. And it has been quite upsetting being labeled as one who never criticizes a Muslim Majority nation.

Titus 1:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.


There are quite a few verses that dont seem to kind to the Jews in the NT.


Cant find anything about Christainty in the Torah since it didn't exist then. Same with Islam in the NT and OT.

There is some stuff that is said to be about Jesus in the Talamid though its controversial and not flattering.


Can you back up the above. I find it hard to believe you can without some incredible stretching since Christainty did not exist when the Torah was written and Islam did not exist when the NT and Torah were written.