Newguy, if you choose to ignore facts that's up to you. If you can find historical recounts refuting what I posted please feel free to post them ITT.

Thekid, I'm not the only one who interprets the Quran and the historical facts of early Islam this way. There are many theologians who interpret it this way and there's also Muslims who interpret it this way, they're the guys behind the terror attacks. Of course there's Muslims that disagree with parts of the Quran, but that doesn't mean that those parts cease to exist or are any less dangerous.

Do you think women not driving is a part of some Muslims religious beliefs?

How about the verses coolerboy123 posted? Are they misconceptions or do some scholars hold those views.

I mean ill give you the benefit of the doubt. But your post itt and in the other dont come off as though you do acknowledge the good and the bad of Islam.

As far as working together. What are we working together on? My bigotry?



Hey man no problem apology accepted. I can see how you would think im against Islam.

You didn't address my post though.

If you say stoning is not a part of Islam. Thats telling people what their religion is. If you say a verse is a misconception. You are telling people what their religion is.

Alright if you and others dont do it. Im not going to push it anymore.

Thekid. How was my last post offensive to you. I am being completely serious and not trying to start a fight. Everything I posted are historical accounts. I have said that not all muslims are bad, for the most part I haven't even been talking about muslims at all, but instead what is said in the Quran and what Muhammad did. I actually think that it's important to understand these things and not just ignore them because most muslims are perfectly fine people. I'm not out to offend anyone and I actually have no problem with you.

This issue of women not being able to drive in SA is due to human failure. Its not part of the Quran, This is where I desperately pray that somehow an Islamic Scholar would enter into this thread discussion, preferably one whom has the entire Quran memorized from front to back. (and some Muslims do)


No, what I would like to work on together is how we can treat/prevent Islamophobic views, which so far Coolboy has exhibited.

Thekid I'm actually offended now that you would compare me to those in Muslim hate groups. ITT I haven't said I hate muslims, that all muslims are bad, or that I advocate violence or bigotry against muslims, or even that I think that Islam has been a completely negative thing I actually said it wasn't in my first or second post. I fail to see how any of what I said would lead someone to the assumption that I must be involved with or mirror the views of a hate group. I'm essentially trying to show that it's not a perfect religion as newguy more so than yourself seems to believe. I also get increasingly frustrated when I'm called a bigot because I of how I view the controversial verses in the Quran and the early history of the religion. I actually respect that you decided to learn more about Islam when you had questions about it and were able to draw your own conclusions which you're absolutely entitled to just as I am mine.

Well i said i would not push it but..

For one. If the above is true then you pointing it out as an example of yourself criticizing Islam doesn't work.

It also shows you telling people what their religion is. Some have it as a part of their religious views women should not drive. You say its not a part of Islam. You kick that view out of their religion and force your version of their religion on them.

Ok.

Doggg is engaging in Islamophobia with his most recent post in "Black Hole Properties mentioned in the Quran", a thread in which the original discussion has turned into myself having to defend Islam from posters like Doggg. That being said, I want to reassure Doggg that I don't want anyone banned. I want to work with posters like Doggg and Coolguy.

Here is Doggg's most recent post in which he describes his ridiculous "bottom line"

Lets take this quote by Doggg and posts by Coolguy123 itt and see how they compare to what Islamophobia is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

Doggg in other posts you have praised the positive teachings of the Bible, and I agree with you in this regard. What boggles my mind is how you have constantly been criticizing the very foundation of Islam... the Quran, at the same time.

I would like to ask folks what their honest thoughts are on the Park51 project in NYC and if the continued construction of the Islamic community center should be allowed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51

"Park51 (originally named Cordoba House) is a planned 13-story Islamic community center in Lower Manhattan. The majority of the center will be open to the general public and its proponents have said the center will promote interfaith dialogue"

Listen dude. Get a grip.

What I meant by that comment is that I don't think Islam will ever escape its prophetic destiny (aka -- its birth was violent, aggressive and threatening). It was born by the sword and spread by the sword. It will likely die by the sword.

Call me whatever you want. I really don't care whether you, or everyone here thinks I am an Islamaphobe. I am presenting argument, facts and opinion. We are having a discussion. But you seem more interested in labeling me, and patronizing me, rather than dealing with what I say.

If you think that I was saying that everybody in the middle east was violent or aggressive, than you are just mistaken.

My feeling is that you know Islam cannot be justified as a reasonable religious alternative when placed next to Christianity, and objectively compared.

You are not the only one, sir.

Why do you think they restrict Bibles in so many Muslim-majority countries?

Why do you think Christians are not allowed to openly proselytize there?

It is for the same reason that you are spending an inordinate amount of time trying to slander me-- because I'm on to something, and you know it.

Sometimes it's because they are...

Let's try and keep the blatant insults to a minimum. Thanks.

I have two specific issues with Islam. First, it is forbidden for non-Muslims to enter a mosque (with some very rare controlled exceptions for PR reasons) and the penalty for leaving Islam is death. You can talk around it all you like, but if you have to hide what you are doing and prevent people from leaving if they want, then you are a problem.

No. Keep thinking you and Christianity are special if you want, but no.

I have been inside multiple Masjids and get this, I'm Catholic. I would like to ask you specifically RLK, do you believe the continued construction of the Islamic community center in NYC should be allowed?

Kid,
I would be interested in hearing your response to Coolerboy's post #44. He is asserting his points as fact, if you don't think they are facts then it would be interesting to hear you point of view on them or at least some of them.

I think Coolerboy's criticism is reasonable to the extent that he has limited his commentary to Mohammed and the Koran. Tell us why the points he made in post #44 are misunderstandings or otherwise invalid.

I must say I have provided factual information on how both Catholics and Jews live prosperous lives in the Middle east. Along with the fact that women are empowered in Muslim Majority nations across the world, I have listed examples of this multiple times in other recent rgt threads. OTOH I am still waiting for your evidence with regards to your claims.


I apologize to Doggg you if you are taking my comments out of context with offense, which I probably am guilty of as well.

Doggg are you Christian? If so its all the more reason for us to work together here. After all if you are a follower of Christ you should know that M (peace be upon him) had but the greatest things to say about Isa. The key difference being Jesus is seen as a prophet in Islam rather then God himself.

So in Christianity if you reject Jesus as the son of god it is publishable by death. Also punishable by death wrt Christianity is any acceptance of the prophet M (peace be upon him).

Now In Islam we do see that acceptance of Jesus as the son of god or god himself is considered an unpardonable sin. The key difference is that Islam does not actually reject Jesus but view him in a different fashion wrt to the holy trinity.

Take a look at what the Quran says about Jesus

"The belief that Jesus is a prophet is required in Islam, as it is for all prophets named in the Qur’an. This is reflected in the fact that he is clearly a significant figure in the Qur’an (appearing in 93 ayaat [or, verses])"

"What about the other miracles? These were to show that Jesus was not acting on his own behalf, but that he was backed by God. The Qur’an specifies that these miracles were performed by God’s leave. This may be compared to the Book of Acts in the Bible, chapter 2, verse 22, where it says that the miracles were done by God to show that he approved of Jesus. Also, note that Jesus himself is recorded in the Gospel of John to have said, “I can do nothing of my own authority” (5:30). The miracles, therefore, were done not by his own authority, but by God’s authority. "

In the Quran Jesus was seen as a healer whom had the ability to perform miracles like healing the blind and raising the dead.

The most common title given to Jesus in the Quran is al-Masīḥ ("the Messiah")

Quotes from the Quran regarding Isa ,

3:45 O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah

5:112 Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith."

19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."

19:20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

19:91 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.

19:91 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious

21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

Al- Quran 6:151 “…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.”

Al- Quran 5:32 if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people


Al- Quran 5:2 "Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression."

Al- Quran 16:90 God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed.


"Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) sent a message to the monks of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai:"

"This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him), as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

"Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of the world."

The bolded parts give context that you might want to note.

Also, the last part (that I snipped) is not from the Quran, no?

I have supplied the evidence. And I can supply oodles more. But every time I do, you run off to ATF.

I really can't believe that you think Christians aren't ritualistically persecuted in most Islamic countries. There is a preponderance of evidence that shows otherwise. It is in the news EVERY DAY.

We really don't have much to talk about if you refuse to see it.

A Christian is a follower of Christ. Christ was a preacher and prophet. Christians are commanded to spread the gospel message. If your laws criminalize that act, then you have taken away much of what it means to be a Christian, which is loving others and spreading the gospel of charity through word and deed.

As a Christian, I don't see how I could ever "prosper" under such a system.

Quite personally, I'm having a hard time taking you seriously at this point. Women are far from empowered in most Muslim-majority countries. Christians are persecuted as a norm. And it is not isolated incidents by marginalized radicals. It is institutional persecution. Which is the worst kind.

Is it so ridiculous to believe that there are Christians who believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? That it is true?

Take offense at that if you wish.

Your position in the "black hole thread" was that the majority of Islamic countries have strict bible polices, you said "pick one any one". And now you are saying Christians are persecuted as a norm in the Middle East. Are you aware the president of Lebanon is Maronite Catholic, Lebanon is a country with over 50% followers of Islam.

It is important to note that certain polices of countries like Saudi Arabia (not to be confused with other Muslim Majority countries) are a product of human failure. If you read the literal teaching's of Muhammand (peace be upon him) you will actually see his daughter Fatima( peace be upon her) was involved in Business transactions, this is a fact. Understanding this fact coupled with the fact that for example both the UAE and Kuwait have women involved in day to day parliament/business activities ( and Women's rights continues to expand in these countries)... This present day example alongs with the Achtiname debunks your misconceptions of how women and religious minorities are to be treated as outlined in the Quran. The UAE and Kuwait are partialy based on a Sharia law. These are two countries with polices that are considerably more liberal then S.A. And again as I stated they are continuing to expand women's rights.

As for your claims Doggg, you have yet to provide evidence that almost every Muslim majority country has strict bible policies.


Also why did you give no mention to the content of my last two posts? I want to work with but its tough to do this when you continue to state how Christianity has great values yet you do not acknowledge any the benefits of Islam.

The prophet Muhammad( peace by upon him) preached upon his followers to treat all "people of the book" (Jews and Christians) with dignity and respect. Now lets take a look at what Muhammad(peace be upon him) literally said about Christianity

You can continue to Ignore factual information like the The Achtiname of Muhammad, "also known as the Covenant or (Holy) Testament (Testamentum) of the Prophet Muhammad, is a document or ahdname which is a charter or writ ratified by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad granting protection and other privileges to the monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai. It is sealed with an imprint representing Muhammad's hand."

Here is what Muhammad (peace be upon him) said when proclaiming his command to protect and respect the monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai.

" Whosoever of my nation shall presume to break my promise and oath, which is contained in this present agreement, destroys the promise of God, acts contrary to the oath, and will be a resister of the faith, (which God forbid) for he becomes worthy of the curse, whether he be the King himself, or a poor man, or whatever person he may be"

These are priests Doggg that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was protecting, what more do you need to hear? Again, According to the facts and words of the Quran and teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as outlined in his Achtiname... adherents of Islam and Christianity are to live in peace.

I am sure you have. I acknowledged that there were some exceptions in Western countries where Islam is trying to gain acceptance. I would bet you have never been in a mosque in Saudi Arabia.

I notice that you did not comment on the punishment for leaving Islam.

Why did you bring up the Islamic center in NYC? Presumably an attempt to change the subject? In any event, if the center is going to be opposed there should be a legal basis for that opposition. I am not particularly interested in the subject so I have no idea if there is a valid legal position for opposing the center.

I would like to say in my last post I meant to use the term Maronite wrt the President of Lebanon, as opposed to the Maronite Catholic term I used.

There are slight difference's between Maronites and Roman Catholics, I wanted to make sure I addressed this.

Lebanon was in civil war until a power sharing agreement was made. It's not exactly an example of Christian empowerment in the ME.