Apologist just means defender. When you say things like "we really don't know how Brunei will implement stoning and cutting people's hands off" you're being an apologist for those acts by trying to mitigating them. If you're fine with that it shouldn't be a problem.

QED

You don't have a realistic understanding of the implications of restricting freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

I think we should care and I think its great to support admirable Muslims like that women from Yemen.

But I would disagree with this view of yours, because I am concerned about what are fellow humans in S.A are saying about us on their internet forums.

Who are these jerks you are talking about in S.A? I know I have said this before but I feel there is a better way to go about interacting with S.A. For instance S.A is a very wealthy nation, its unusual to see a Saudi national working a minimum wage type of job you would see here in the U.S.

You and I both know we cant go to S.A and start complaining about the legal system w/o facing repercussion. How in any way does it help the situation to continue to attack the foundation of the countries way of life? Saudi Arabia is the country of the Prophet, these Muslims and their way of life is going nowhere. If we can find more in common with them it can go a long way. I think President Obama has realized this in his recent approach to Iran.

That being said, recently women have taken to the protesting the driving ban in S.A, would it not have been more positive and effective to create a thread about these women getting behind the wheel ? Can you agree to this?

If you could list your questions and concerns one by one I will try and address them try and mix up your questions a bit, try not to use the most extreme cases wrt whatever you are trying to accomplish itt.

why are you bringing up slavery, (where) do you think it still exists?

Add a little more content to your posts or I will stop responding to you, If you want a nice reply you should act in more respectable manner. Of course you are entitled to say w/e you want, its the internet

I'll list them one by one.

Muhammad married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage once she was 9 years old while he was 53 years old.

good question, I will do my best to answer. Give me some time on this one as I may consult a local Imam.

In the mean time what are your general thoughts on Jordan(country)?

It was a reply to a long-winded post on your behalf explaining the politeness and warmth of Muslims, something which is not on dispute (though it does seem like a fairly stereotypical statement; I'm sure there are plenty of Muslims that don't behave in your described manner). Louis Cyphre responded with a very fitting example to show that warmth and politeness are not themselves sufficient to say that a culture does not engage in practices worthy of criticism.

On a related note - Kuwait, a country you brought up in an earlier thread as an example of an Islamic country with liberal practices is also renowned for its slavery.

You're seriously all over the place. Look guys Saudi Arabians are just like you and me, except for when it comes to killing apostates then they are nothing like us, and don't talk to them about it.

The problem is that Saudi Arabia isn't some undifferentiated mass of people. There are people who don't support killing of apostates and some that do. Which one of these are those Saudis that we shouldn't talk to?

So keep in mind we are talking about prior to the med-evil ages, we are talking about the 7th century. Of course during these times relationships between humans highly differed from those of today.

From a historians view - "Colin Turner, a professor of Islamic studies,] states that since such marriages between an older man and a young girl were customary among the Bedouins, Muhammad's marriage would not have been considered improper by his contemporaries. Moreover, Karen Armstrong, the British author on comparative religion, has affirmed that "There was no impropriety in Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Marriages conducted in absentia to seal an alliance were often contracted at this time between adults and minors who were even younger than Aisha. This practice continued in Europe well into the early modern period."



I will try this from a possible Muslim perspective..

Aisha is a beloved figure of Islam and is well revered. Much of M's relationship with Aisha was a political one in order to associate himself with leaders of the Muslim community. M and Aisha had a strong intellectual relationship, The physical relationship was out of necessity to strengthen M's possible allies.

Aisha was involved in several hadiths as they are attributed to her. Aisha lived for 50 years after the death of M and contributed much to Islam. Aisha was a highly intellectual women, in fact many referred to her as the smartest women of her time.

According to religious scholar Reza Aslan, a well known respected Muslim,

"After the death of Muhammad, Muslim women believed it was Muslim men, not Islam, that suppressed the rights of women. It was for that reason that Muslim feminists are advocating to return Islam to the society Muhammad had originally envisioned for his followers. Muhammad designated Muslim women as spiritual guides of Medinan society; they prayed and fought alongside Muslim men, and acted not only as religious leaders but political leaders, such as Aisha herself in the Battle of the Camel. United prayer gatherings of both men and women occurred near Muhammad's house, as they were blessed as a "single undivided community"

by all means, comparing Saudia Arabia which is a tremendously successful nation to slavery in the USA pre civil war is lol wrong/absurd. I mean "slavery".... For instance we see female doctors in S.A. Are you thinking of Afghanistan under the Taliban?

like you said its the internet and there will be disagreements

I understand their are people who do support the apostasy laws. At the same time there is no formal Inquisition court in S.A for apostasy. I don't think an apostasy execution has been carried out in years in S.A unless someone can provide an example. Like I said before I watched the videos of the Imams themselves and they say if you recant your new faith you will be fine.

I disagree with S.A in my last point, I would imagine this is due to where I grew up and the fact I did not grow up in the 99% Muslim nation of Saudi Arabia.

So how do you go about addressing this specific policy of apostasy in Saudi Arabia? I'm with Pope Francis in doing what we can to reach out to Islam, I can expand on this reasoning later.

This doesn't really make much sense. The US was a succesful nation in the 19th century.

And those female doctors aren't allowed to drive to work and enjoy the chaotic traffic in one of the worst scoring countries in the world on the Gender Gap Report.

Seriously. You started of skewed, but now you're bordering in on blinded. Defending Saudi-Arabia as a champion of women's rights is abysmally horrible.

Why should they have to recant their new faith? This is ridiculous and a violation of their human rights

I would like to get away from the single topic of S.A. Women are greatly involved in politics/business in multiple Muslim Majority countries,

Kuwait- Women in parliament-7.7%
Women in labour force- 47%

"Women in Kuwait are considered to be among the most emancipated women in the Middle East region.In 2011, Kuwait was ranked highest of all Middle East countries in gender equality in the Human Development Report's Gender Inequality Index."

So according to the Human Development Report's Gender Inequality Index, percentage of women voters is actually higher in Kuwait then those of Israel, which is also a somewhat more liberal country in the middle east. Although I would prefer to live in Kuwait over Israel based on how each country treats its citizens.

"Kuwaiti women are also judges, police officers, royal guards, special forces officers, and immigration officers. "

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Gen...eport_2012.pdf

United Arab Emirate-

Women in parliament-17.5%
Females over 25 with secondary education- 73.1%
Women in labour force- 43.5%

source- global gender gap report

they should not have to, how would you go about changing the policy? Seeing this topic of Apostasy in S.A probably wont go away.

Well I'd make a start by pointing out what a terrible thing it is and that there is no excuse for it whatsoever, culturally or otherwise. Don't you agree?

I dont mean to sound rude and ask the same question, but I was more or less wondering how you would specifically engage the ruling family of S.A. As in what would your argument strategy be considering everything?

Well there's nothing I can do about engaging the ruling family of SA etc. But that doesn't change my view on the matter.

However, I can give my opinion on the subject on here (a poker forum) and ask if you agree with my opinion?

Slavery was not the point of Louie Cyphre's post. tame deuces spelled this out in post 384.

re read post 384

EDIT: Kid you are tilting the hell out of me. You are like LV. 12 troll

Hahahahahaha... Good stuff

Kid. In regards to Aisha. I'm not an expert on marital customs at that time, I personally hadn't heard of that being normal practice. I was aware that marriages were arranged when girls were young, but had not heard of them being consummated when the girl was 9 .

In Sharia law it is still permissible for men to arrange marriages with young girls and consummate when the girl turns 9.

I'd agree with Augie. Muhammad had many wives and concubines and I doubt it was because they were all intellectuals.

In keeping with listing them one by one the second fact

Muhammad kept and traded slaves