Look cooler, if you want to discuss these issues with me you will get more then a one or two word response. And btw I like the tone of the convo so far, earlier we were both slamming each other. Although I would appreciate if we delve into all areas of Islam. Not just what you are I would like to discuss.

But Wow, that is one heck of a story and a very unique situation. Has this ever been on the news or anything? I'm surprised you did not bring this up pages ago. Here are my thoughts, and of course violence against innocents occurs everywhere in the world.

So part of my argument is that if you are a non Muslim in a 98/99% Mulsim majority then by all means you should not go around yelling "Jesus is god" or similar actions. Now I will try and address your two quesitons

-1. By all means yes it is wrong to kill an innocent person anywhere in the world., at the same time if I was in a far removed area of the earth I would do my utmost to be aware of my surroundings and the belief system of those around me. Of course many of these cowards who behead folks are doing this because of foreign military presence in what they believe to be their land. This type of violence also occurred in WW2, for instance

-2. Of course some of these groups may appear to be Islamic, you will see them chanting Islamic slogans and what not. But, if you dig deeper you will often find groups like Al Nusra front do indeed have secular goals which amount to land/money/resources. As for S.A which is the most conservative Muslim country in the world, this counrty is well known for its harsh policies and they need change IMO. In fact, even I have criticized the polices of S.A

you should vote in the Islam poll thread, here is my John Kerry like pitch,


I encourage you to vote strongly agree. Honestly tho I think you ought to vote ,it doesn't look you have yet.

I want to give you an answer here from S.A perspective.

I watched some of the hardline videos on youtube where a S.A person of power discuss Apostasy. Even these guys say an execution or even a conviction will not take place so long as the apostate renounce their new non Islamic religion.

Much of the political hierarchy in S.A view Apostasy as the same thing as Treason here in the USA. So this is something very crucial to keep in mind. This being said I am shocked the courts did not offer these young men the chance to renig on their conversions, Regardless I view them as cowards. What year did this occur, I would assume a while ago?

I am surprised you are ok with being on this side of the argument. People are murdered for peacefully sharing their belief system - that is an atrocity.

And your comment is"you should not go around yelling Jesus is god". To be fair they were probably not yelling but rather peacefully being in discussion with the locals.

Your stance is appalling. Say for example a woman gets raped outside a nightclub. Is your comment going to be something like" well don't go around in slutty clothes"?

You are on the wrong side of the argument. Just like rape is wrong so is murdering people who are peacefully sharing their beliefs. To somehow place emphasis on the "mistake" of the victim is erroneous.

Kid, I didn't bring this up pages ago because frankly I didn't think it would be necessary and these instances actually didn't do anything to form my opinion of islam as they happened when I was young or before I was born. The families were killed in the early 90's and the instance with the prof happened in the mid-late 70's. To me it's clear that these were not politically motivated. These were missionaries trying to spread the gospel and that's why they were killed/forced to witness killings.

I don't know if you've ever known missionaries, but they don't go around shouting jesus is lord. In countries like these who are opposed to having missionaries they will start underground churches that welcome all who are interested. Being a Catholic I'd assume you know that the bible clearly says that part of being a christian is spreading the name of the lord. This doesn't mean that all people are called to be missionaries as spreading the word could be done in different ways and doesn't have to be done abroad, but some people feel that they are called to bear witness abroad.

It's not something crucial to keep in mind at all. Treason and Apostasy are very different things and have very different consequences (for a state)

But why should they? That is the point: It is unjust for islamic states to tell people what they must believe.

I missed you saying what lemon quoted you as saying above. It's in no way ok to try to force someone to renounce their religion by threat of death. Most won't renounce anyways. People who live in areas where apostasy is punishable by death know that apostasy is punishable by death and have a strong enough conviction in their religious beliefs that they would rather be killed before renouncing their faith.

these were not my viewpoints, it was intended to be the view of one in a position of power in S.A. Earlier itt I linked a youtube video of a man explaining his thoughts on how Apostasy in some Muslim majority countries and treason in the USA are viewed in a similar fashion

You are completely misunderstanding me, I apologize if you felt a certain way. So my belief is that no man should be executed for apostasy.

I was bringing you the argument for a possible S.A Judicial perspective.

And btw in Brunei I am happy to inform you a hotline has been set up to protect women from rape. Although their is hardly any crime in Brunei. BTW just recently in Kuwait a rapist of young women was sentenced to the highest possible punishment.

I fail to see how showing that some people consider apostasy as being akin to treason as being in anyway helpful to your case here. The opposite applies imo

Again From a S.A perspective, clearly this is against the nations law. That being said I don't believe SA has carried out a death penatly wrt apostasy for quite some time.

No apology necessary it is not about my feelings. I am more interested in hearing compelling arguments from you.

Therefore you are in disagreement with what many Muslim scholars believe. Is imprisonment for apostasy ok though? (serious question)

The argument has nothing to do with my beliefs, the specific topic of S.A was brought up so I did my best to respond to as what the polices of S.A are. The poster Demachi did this in a similar way in his "ask me about Islam thread"

IMO no it is not. I thought we were moving on from the topic of apostasy?

That doesn't make it ok. Having no freedom of religion is a bad thing and it is directly linked to the religion of the particular nation. Making christianity and other religions ill-legal to practice is the direct result of islam and sharia law being incorporated into every aspect of the country's culture and government.

If you identify yourself as a christian and you're opposed to missionaries preaching the word in every corner of the earth then you need to go back and look over your bible some.

I hear what you are saying, and you sound quite Christian btw which I like

And to address both you and Lemon here, how do you guys think we should introduce ourselves and our way of life to places like S.A. So what I would not do is right away break the nations specific law of creating an underground church.

OTOH what I would do is at first get to know everything I can about these people and their way of life. Again the way of Islam is one of hospitality, if you respect Islam you will in turn be treated with the utmost respect and dignity. After all it was prophet M who in his achtiname (with his own seal) declared that Christians far and near are to be allowed to preach their message.


So now we have one country (out of how many) we are discussing here wrt to apostasy, S.A which btw its current system of law has only been in power since 1934. So we are also not discussing the full 1400+ year history of S.A after M's revaluation. In fact during much of this 1400 year history, as I have consistently outlined itt,. Muslims protecting and welcomed non Muslims into their country's around the world. They (Muslim rulers) allowed the Christians and Jews to practice their separate non Muslim religious beliefs.

Missionaries live there and are a part of the community, but they have no other way to teach without having to do so in secret. I'm using SA as an example, but it is not the only muslim majority country where preaching in secret is standard operating procedure for missionaries.

On a side note. You are saying frequently that muslims should follow what Muhammad said and did. I'm not saying that he never said or did anything good, but if you want to point to him as an example you would have to be all inclusive in regards to what he said and did.

I would like to hear from you on the dozen or so facts about muhammad that I posted earlier. You won't be able to find any historians who refute these facts, I'd actually encourage you to try to find one. I would like you to address this as it's important to understand his history if you want to use him as an example as frequently as you do.

How many of the traditional schools recognize punishment for apostasy, in the sense of no longer being a Muslim?

Just to clarify apostasy is not only an issue in Saudi Arabia. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are restricted to varying degrees across the Islamic world.





http://islamforwest.org/2013/09/28/f...islamic-value/

Sometimes it is sometimes its not.

What that second graph fails to mention is what % of the Muslim population wanted Sharia law nor does it consider the distinctions in implementation.

If the numbers in favour of Sharia law are small that graph may not be telling you what you think it's telling you.

Good discussion for a different thread IMO: How to evangelize in the Middle East.

More importantly I think people should be able to discuss religion & philosophy freely without fear of persecution - everywhere.

This is not realistic. You think if you are nice and give them a chance to talk then you will get your turn to talk too?

Bottom line: If you suggest a different religion than Islam you are going to be persecuted in the vast majority of Moslem countries.

No.

Look at the graphs I posted, it is not just an issue of Saudi Arabia. There are problems with freedom of religion and freedom of speech ACROSS the Islamic world.

Plus some advocates of Sharia law will actually use it to argue that the law should be secular. Such is religion, there are many variants and denominations.

The issue gets messy because most people tend to view it as polemic; the debate between thekid and coolerboy is an excellent example. They're not trying to understand what they are debating, they are merely trying to excuse their opinions. Islam must either be good or bad, and the "opposite side" is ofcourse diagnosed with some negative and unfortunate characteristics that explain that their argument is not one of rationality.

I never said it was about your beliefs